[Micronet] Apple Mail Behaviors

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[Micronet] Apple Mail Behaviors

Beth Muramoto
Full disclosure, this email is as much to seek answers, inconclusive or otherwise, but to also find out how many people are using Apple Mail in general.

Users who are using Apple Mail like it because they can juggle multiple accounts in one place. It's not the only client that does it but being an Apple environment, it seemed the logical route to take for us. This feature is why some people didn't leave it for bMail on the web.

However, frequently, users have been reporting that Apple Mail will lose their passwords/google keys and they have to re-enter them. Sometimes just doing that isn't good enough and they have to delete their accounts and re-create them and even that often doesn't work. 

Case in Point: One user has a particularly puzzling behavior in that Mail on his iPhone for bMail works perfectly so I know that his account and google key are correct, but no matter how many times I delete his bMail account and re-enter all of the credentials, he can't get bMail on his Apple Mail. It just keeps spitting out the window to enter his password.  I'm hoping to avoid deleting a plist that could mean re-entering his other accounts (yahoo, personal gmail and a couple of other accounts stemming from consultant work) as they are working and to be honest, this user isn't very patient and telling him to start all over again would be tantamount to "killing the messenger". Think of this as selfish self-preservation on my part (hee).

So the specific question is does anyone have any suggestions on what else I can try to make the bMail "stick" in Apple Mail. I've been using the KB instructions in bconnected as well.

The general question (and I have googled this with all kinds of descriptors and have found nothing concrete): Does anyone know what triggers this strange password "amnesia" in Apple Mail?

Lastly, is there another client software that works well on a Mac for multiple accounts? Admission: I've only worked with Thunderbird and Outlook minimally and years ago and wasn't too impressed with their interface then and some users I gave those options to weren't impressed either. So new options are welcome or convincing "sales pitches" for Thunderbird and Outlook as they are today (since I'm assuming updates could have made them better than past versions years ago) are welcome as well.

Thanks for listening and as always I value and appreciate any feedback offered.


Beth

--
***********************************************
Beth Muramoto
Computer Resource Specialist
Graduate School of Education
University of California, Berkeley
1650 Tolman Hall
Berkeley, CA 94720
Email:  mailto:[hidden email]
Phone:  (510) 643-0203 
Fax:  (510) 643-6239

“Finish each day and be done with it. You have done what you could. Some blunders and absurdities have crept in – forget them as soon as you can. Tomorrow is a new day. You shall begin it serenely and with too high a spirit to be encumbered with your old nonsense.”
                            -Emerson

This is the essence of forgiveness. You can't change what happened but you can make sure it doesn't have the power to prevent you from being happy tomorrow.
                           
                             -Paul Boese

“Kind words do not cost much yet they accomplish much.” 

                            -Blaise Pascal


***********************************************


 
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Re: [Micronet] Apple Mail Behaviors

Ian Crew
What version of Mac OS X are they on?  In my experience, Apple Mail was badly borked on Mac OS X 10.9.x (Mavericks), but is somewhat better on Mac OS X 10.10.x (Yosemite).  

You might also poke around in Keychain Access (/Applications/Utilities/Keychain Access) and make sure that they don't have tons of duplicate entries in their keychains (check both their "Login" and "iCloud" keychains) for their bMail accounts.

Cheers,

Ian

On Jan 28, 2015, at 9:11 AM, Beth Muramoto <[hidden email]> wrote:

Full disclosure, this email is as much to seek answers, inconclusive or otherwise, but to also find out how many people are using Apple Mail in general.

Users who are using Apple Mail like it because they can juggle multiple accounts in one place. It's not the only client that does it but being an Apple environment, it seemed the logical route to take for us. This feature is why some people didn't leave it for bMail on the web.

However, frequently, users have been reporting that Apple Mail will lose their passwords/google keys and they have to re-enter them. Sometimes just doing that isn't good enough and they have to delete their accounts and re-create them and even that often doesn't work. 

Case in Point: One user has a particularly puzzling behavior in that Mail on his iPhone for bMail works perfectly so I know that his account and google key are correct, but no matter how many times I delete his bMail account and re-enter all of the credentials, he can't get bMail on his Apple Mail. It just keeps spitting out the window to enter his password.  I'm hoping to avoid deleting a plist that could mean re-entering his other accounts (yahoo, personal gmail and a couple of other accounts stemming from consultant work) as they are working and to be honest, this user isn't very patient and telling him to start all over again would be tantamount to "killing the messenger". Think of this as selfish self-preservation on my part (hee).

So the specific question is does anyone have any suggestions on what else I can try to make the bMail "stick" in Apple Mail. I've been using the KB instructions in bconnected as well.

The general question (and I have googled this with all kinds of descriptors and have found nothing concrete): Does anyone know what triggers this strange password "amnesia" in Apple Mail?

Lastly, is there another client software that works well on a Mac for multiple accounts? Admission: I've only worked with Thunderbird and Outlook minimally and years ago and wasn't too impressed with their interface then and some users I gave those options to weren't impressed either. So new options are welcome or convincing "sales pitches" for Thunderbird and Outlook as they are today (since I'm assuming updates could have made them better than past versions years ago) are welcome as well.

Thanks for listening and as always I value and appreciate any feedback offered.


Beth

--
***********************************************
Beth Muramoto
Computer Resource Specialist
Graduate School of Education
University of California, Berkeley
1650 Tolman Hall
Berkeley, CA 94720
Email:  mailto:[hidden email]
Phone:  (510) 643-0203 
Fax:  (510) 643-6239

“Finish each day and be done with it. You have done what you could. Some blunders and absurdities have crept in – forget them as soon as you can. Tomorrow is a new day. You shall begin it serenely and with too high a spirit to be encumbered with your old nonsense.”
                            -Emerson

This is the essence of forgiveness. You can't change what happened but you can make sure it doesn't have the power to prevent you from being happy tomorrow.
                           
                             -Paul Boese

“Kind words do not cost much yet they accomplish much.” 

                            -Blaise Pascal


***********************************************


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To learn more about Micronet, including how to subscribe to or unsubscribe from its mailing list and how to find out about upcoming meetings, please visit the Micronet Web site:

http://micronet.berkeley.edu

Messages you send to this mailing list are public and world-viewable, and the list's archives can be browsed and searched on the Internet.  This means these messages can be viewed by (among others) your bosses, prospective employers, and people who have known you in the past.

___
Ian Crew

IST-Architecture, Platforms and Integration (API)
Earl Warren Hall, Second Floor
University of California, Berkeley


 
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Messages you send to this mailing list are public and world-viewable, and the list's archives can be browsed and searched on the Internet.  This means these messages can be viewed by (among others) your bosses, prospective employers, and people who have known you in the past.
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Re: [Micronet] Apple Mail Behaviors

Beth Muramoto
Ian,

Ah! The dreaded keychain. I had forgotten about that and to be honest, I have toiled over keychain issues in the past (some dealing with using terminal to rectify old password/new password computer login conflicts -- not pretty) that I have a bit of an "avoidance"/mental block behavior about it as well. 

The user is on Mountain Lion, but he's had this account problem when he was using Snow Leopard as well so it "carried over" which could mean keychain might be a good place to check. He doesn't use iCloud (don't get me started on that).

Thanks. I'll investigate that.

Beth

On Wed, Jan 28, 2015 at 9:23 AM, Ian Crew <[hidden email]> wrote:
What version of Mac OS X are they on?  In my experience, Apple Mail was badly borked on Mac OS X 10.9.x (Mavericks), but is somewhat better on Mac OS X 10.10.x (Yosemite).  

You might also poke around in Keychain Access (/Applications/Utilities/Keychain Access) and make sure that they don't have tons of duplicate entries in their keychains (check both their "Login" and "iCloud" keychains) for their bMail accounts.

Cheers,

Ian

On Jan 28, 2015, at 9:11 AM, Beth Muramoto <[hidden email]> wrote:

Full disclosure, this email is as much to seek answers, inconclusive or otherwise, but to also find out how many people are using Apple Mail in general.

Users who are using Apple Mail like it because they can juggle multiple accounts in one place. It's not the only client that does it but being an Apple environment, it seemed the logical route to take for us. This feature is why some people didn't leave it for bMail on the web.

However, frequently, users have been reporting that Apple Mail will lose their passwords/google keys and they have to re-enter them. Sometimes just doing that isn't good enough and they have to delete their accounts and re-create them and even that often doesn't work. 

Case in Point: One user has a particularly puzzling behavior in that Mail on his iPhone for bMail works perfectly so I know that his account and google key are correct, but no matter how many times I delete his bMail account and re-enter all of the credentials, he can't get bMail on his Apple Mail. It just keeps spitting out the window to enter his password.  I'm hoping to avoid deleting a plist that could mean re-entering his other accounts (yahoo, personal gmail and a couple of other accounts stemming from consultant work) as they are working and to be honest, this user isn't very patient and telling him to start all over again would be tantamount to "killing the messenger". Think of this as selfish self-preservation on my part (hee).

So the specific question is does anyone have any suggestions on what else I can try to make the bMail "stick" in Apple Mail. I've been using the KB instructions in bconnected as well.

The general question (and I have googled this with all kinds of descriptors and have found nothing concrete): Does anyone know what triggers this strange password "amnesia" in Apple Mail?

Lastly, is there another client software that works well on a Mac for multiple accounts? Admission: I've only worked with Thunderbird and Outlook minimally and years ago and wasn't too impressed with their interface then and some users I gave those options to weren't impressed either. So new options are welcome or convincing "sales pitches" for Thunderbird and Outlook as they are today (since I'm assuming updates could have made them better than past versions years ago) are welcome as well.

Thanks for listening and as always I value and appreciate any feedback offered.


Beth

--
***********************************************
Beth Muramoto
Computer Resource Specialist
Graduate School of Education
University of California, Berkeley
1650 Tolman Hall
Berkeley, CA 94720
Email:  mailto:[hidden email]
Phone:  <a href="tel:%28510%29%20643-0203" value="+15106430203" target="_blank">(510) 643-0203 
Fax:  <a href="tel:%28510%29%20643-6239" value="+15106436239" target="_blank">(510) 643-6239

“Finish each day and be done with it. You have done what you could. Some blunders and absurdities have crept in – forget them as soon as you can. Tomorrow is a new day. You shall begin it serenely and with too high a spirit to be encumbered with your old nonsense.”
                            -Emerson

This is the essence of forgiveness. You can't change what happened but you can make sure it doesn't have the power to prevent you from being happy tomorrow.
                           
                             -Paul Boese

“Kind words do not cost much yet they accomplish much.” 

                            -Blaise Pascal


***********************************************


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The following was automatically added to this message by the list server:

To learn more about Micronet, including how to subscribe to or unsubscribe from its mailing list and how to find out about upcoming meetings, please visit the Micronet Web site:

http://micronet.berkeley.edu

Messages you send to this mailing list are public and world-viewable, and the list's archives can be browsed and searched on the Internet.  This means these messages can be viewed by (among others) your bosses, prospective employers, and people who have known you in the past.

___
Ian Crew

IST-Architecture, Platforms and Integration (API)
Earl Warren Hall, Second Floor
University of California, Berkeley




--
***********************************************
Beth Muramoto
Computer Resource Specialist
Graduate School of Education
University of California, Berkeley
1650 Tolman Hall
Berkeley, CA 94720
Email:  mailto:[hidden email]
Phone:  (510) 643-0203 
Fax:  (510) 643-6239

“Finish each day and be done with it. You have done what you could. Some blunders and absurdities have crept in – forget them as soon as you can. Tomorrow is a new day. You shall begin it serenely and with too high a spirit to be encumbered with your old nonsense.”
                            -Emerson

This is the essence of forgiveness. You can't change what happened but you can make sure it doesn't have the power to prevent you from being happy tomorrow.
                           
                             -Paul Boese

“Kind words do not cost much yet they accomplish much.” 

                            -Blaise Pascal


***********************************************


 
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The following was automatically added to this message by the list server:

To learn more about Micronet, including how to subscribe to or unsubscribe from its mailing list and how to find out about upcoming meetings, please visit the Micronet Web site:

http://micronet.berkeley.edu

Messages you send to this mailing list are public and world-viewable, and the list's archives can be browsed and searched on the Internet.  This means these messages can be viewed by (among others) your bosses, prospective employers, and people who have known you in the past.
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Re: [Micronet] Apple Mail Behaviors

Vivian Sophia
In reply to this post by Beth Muramoto
Beth, there is a new setting in the Yosemite version of Apple mail that "fixes" your settings so that they are broken. It is on the advanced tab of the account settings. You need to uncheck "automatically detect and maintain account settings" because it will change the settings to calmail.berkeley.edu (based off the mx record, I presume).

You will have to remove the "fixed" account and re-do it, then uncheck the setting, to prevent Mail from "fixing" it back into a broken state.



Vivian Sophia
Berkeley IT (CSS)
Business/Tech Support Analyst
University of California, Berkeley
310B Durant Hall
(510) 541-6120


On Wed, Jan 28, 2015 at 9:11 AM, Beth Muramoto <[hidden email]> wrote:
Full disclosure, this email is as much to seek answers, inconclusive or otherwise, but to also find out how many people are using Apple Mail in general.

Users who are using Apple Mail like it because they can juggle multiple accounts in one place. It's not the only client that does it but being an Apple environment, it seemed the logical route to take for us. This feature is why some people didn't leave it for bMail on the web.

However, frequently, users have been reporting that Apple Mail will lose their passwords/google keys and they have to re-enter them. Sometimes just doing that isn't good enough and they have to delete their accounts and re-create them and even that often doesn't work. 

Case in Point: One user has a particularly puzzling behavior in that Mail on his iPhone for bMail works perfectly so I know that his account and google key are correct, but no matter how many times I delete his bMail account and re-enter all of the credentials, he can't get bMail on his Apple Mail. It just keeps spitting out the window to enter his password.  I'm hoping to avoid deleting a plist that could mean re-entering his other accounts (yahoo, personal gmail and a couple of other accounts stemming from consultant work) as they are working and to be honest, this user isn't very patient and telling him to start all over again would be tantamount to "killing the messenger". Think of this as selfish self-preservation on my part (hee).

So the specific question is does anyone have any suggestions on what else I can try to make the bMail "stick" in Apple Mail. I've been using the KB instructions in bconnected as well.

The general question (and I have googled this with all kinds of descriptors and have found nothing concrete): Does anyone know what triggers this strange password "amnesia" in Apple Mail?

Lastly, is there another client software that works well on a Mac for multiple accounts? Admission: I've only worked with Thunderbird and Outlook minimally and years ago and wasn't too impressed with their interface then and some users I gave those options to weren't impressed either. So new options are welcome or convincing "sales pitches" for Thunderbird and Outlook as they are today (since I'm assuming updates could have made them better than past versions years ago) are welcome as well.

Thanks for listening and as always I value and appreciate any feedback offered.


Beth

--
***********************************************
Beth Muramoto
Computer Resource Specialist
Graduate School of Education
University of California, Berkeley
1650 Tolman Hall
Berkeley, CA 94720
Email:  mailto:[hidden email]
Phone:  <a href="tel:%28510%29%20643-0203" value="+15106430203" target="_blank">(510) 643-0203 
Fax:  <a href="tel:%28510%29%20643-6239" value="+15106436239" target="_blank">(510) 643-6239

“Finish each day and be done with it. You have done what you could. Some blunders and absurdities have crept in – forget them as soon as you can. Tomorrow is a new day. You shall begin it serenely and with too high a spirit to be encumbered with your old nonsense.”
                            -Emerson

This is the essence of forgiveness. You can't change what happened but you can make sure it doesn't have the power to prevent you from being happy tomorrow.
                           
                             -Paul Boese

“Kind words do not cost much yet they accomplish much.” 

                            -Blaise Pascal


***********************************************



-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The following was automatically added to this message by the list server:

To learn more about Micronet, including how to subscribe to or unsubscribe from its mailing list and how to find out about upcoming meetings, please visit the Micronet Web site:

http://micronet.berkeley.edu

Messages you send to this mailing list are public and world-viewable, and the list's archives can be browsed and searched on the Internet.  This means these messages can be viewed by (among others) your bosses, prospective employers, and people who have known you in the past.



 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The following was automatically added to this message by the list server:

To learn more about Micronet, including how to subscribe to or unsubscribe from its mailing list and how to find out about upcoming meetings, please visit the Micronet Web site:

http://micronet.berkeley.edu

Messages you send to this mailing list are public and world-viewable, and the list's archives can be browsed and searched on the Internet.  This means these messages can be viewed by (among others) your bosses, prospective employers, and people who have known you in the past.
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Re: [Micronet] Apple Mail Behaviors

Beth Muramoto
Vivian,

This is great and useful information. None of the users who are having this Apple Mail problem are using Yosemite (it's a mixed bag of Snow Leopard and Mountain Lion so far), but when we upgrade staff in the next year, this information will be good to have.

Thanks for sharing it.

 Beth

On Wed, Jan 28, 2015 at 9:34 AM, Vivian Sophia <[hidden email]> wrote:
Beth, there is a new setting in the Yosemite version of Apple mail that "fixes" your settings so that they are broken. It is on the advanced tab of the account settings. You need to uncheck "automatically detect and maintain account settings" because it will change the settings to calmail.berkeley.edu (based off the mx record, I presume).

You will have to remove the "fixed" account and re-do it, then uncheck the setting, to prevent Mail from "fixing" it back into a broken state.



Vivian Sophia
Berkeley IT (CSS)
Business/Tech Support Analyst
University of California, Berkeley
310B Durant Hall
<a href="tel:%28510%29%20541-6120" value="+15105416120" target="_blank">(510) 541-6120


On Wed, Jan 28, 2015 at 9:11 AM, Beth Muramoto <[hidden email]> wrote:
Full disclosure, this email is as much to seek answers, inconclusive or otherwise, but to also find out how many people are using Apple Mail in general.

Users who are using Apple Mail like it because they can juggle multiple accounts in one place. It's not the only client that does it but being an Apple environment, it seemed the logical route to take for us. This feature is why some people didn't leave it for bMail on the web.

However, frequently, users have been reporting that Apple Mail will lose their passwords/google keys and they have to re-enter them. Sometimes just doing that isn't good enough and they have to delete their accounts and re-create them and even that often doesn't work. 

Case in Point: One user has a particularly puzzling behavior in that Mail on his iPhone for bMail works perfectly so I know that his account and google key are correct, but no matter how many times I delete his bMail account and re-enter all of the credentials, he can't get bMail on his Apple Mail. It just keeps spitting out the window to enter his password.  I'm hoping to avoid deleting a plist that could mean re-entering his other accounts (yahoo, personal gmail and a couple of other accounts stemming from consultant work) as they are working and to be honest, this user isn't very patient and telling him to start all over again would be tantamount to "killing the messenger". Think of this as selfish self-preservation on my part (hee).

So the specific question is does anyone have any suggestions on what else I can try to make the bMail "stick" in Apple Mail. I've been using the KB instructions in bconnected as well.

The general question (and I have googled this with all kinds of descriptors and have found nothing concrete): Does anyone know what triggers this strange password "amnesia" in Apple Mail?

Lastly, is there another client software that works well on a Mac for multiple accounts? Admission: I've only worked with Thunderbird and Outlook minimally and years ago and wasn't too impressed with their interface then and some users I gave those options to weren't impressed either. So new options are welcome or convincing "sales pitches" for Thunderbird and Outlook as they are today (since I'm assuming updates could have made them better than past versions years ago) are welcome as well.

Thanks for listening and as always I value and appreciate any feedback offered.


Beth

--
***********************************************
Beth Muramoto
Computer Resource Specialist
Graduate School of Education
University of California, Berkeley
1650 Tolman Hall
Berkeley, CA 94720
Email:  mailto:[hidden email]
Phone:  <a href="tel:%28510%29%20643-0203" value="+15106430203" target="_blank">(510) 643-0203 
Fax:  <a href="tel:%28510%29%20643-6239" value="+15106436239" target="_blank">(510) 643-6239

“Finish each day and be done with it. You have done what you could. Some blunders and absurdities have crept in – forget them as soon as you can. Tomorrow is a new day. You shall begin it serenely and with too high a spirit to be encumbered with your old nonsense.”
                            -Emerson

This is the essence of forgiveness. You can't change what happened but you can make sure it doesn't have the power to prevent you from being happy tomorrow.
                           
                             -Paul Boese

“Kind words do not cost much yet they accomplish much.” 

                            -Blaise Pascal


***********************************************



-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The following was automatically added to this message by the list server:

To learn more about Micronet, including how to subscribe to or unsubscribe from its mailing list and how to find out about upcoming meetings, please visit the Micronet Web site:

http://micronet.berkeley.edu

Messages you send to this mailing list are public and world-viewable, and the list's archives can be browsed and searched on the Internet.  This means these messages can be viewed by (among others) your bosses, prospective employers, and people who have known you in the past.





--
***********************************************
Beth Muramoto
Computer Resource Specialist
Graduate School of Education
University of California, Berkeley
1650 Tolman Hall
Berkeley, CA 94720
Email:  mailto:[hidden email]
Phone:  (510) 643-0203 
Fax:  (510) 643-6239

“Finish each day and be done with it. You have done what you could. Some blunders and absurdities have crept in – forget them as soon as you can. Tomorrow is a new day. You shall begin it serenely and with too high a spirit to be encumbered with your old nonsense.”
                            -Emerson

This is the essence of forgiveness. You can't change what happened but you can make sure it doesn't have the power to prevent you from being happy tomorrow.
                           
                             -Paul Boese

“Kind words do not cost much yet they accomplish much.” 

                            -Blaise Pascal


***********************************************


 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The following was automatically added to this message by the list server:

To learn more about Micronet, including how to subscribe to or unsubscribe from its mailing list and how to find out about upcoming meetings, please visit the Micronet Web site:

http://micronet.berkeley.edu

Messages you send to this mailing list are public and world-viewable, and the list's archives can be browsed and searched on the Internet.  This means these messages can be viewed by (among others) your bosses, prospective employers, and people who have known you in the past.
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Re: [Micronet] Apple Mail Behaviors

Guy D. VINSON
The simple solution is for everyone to adopt the web based mail interface... this hanging on to apple mail, Outlook, and even still some users on Eudora is just plain silly. I have heard all the arguments about needing the mail client but none of them seem to be more important than the benefits of simplification and standardization.  

Guy Vinson
Computer Support and Consulting
510-842-7199

On Wed, Jan 28, 2015 at 9:38 AM, Beth Muramoto <[hidden email]> wrote:
Vivian,

This is great and useful information. None of the users who are having this Apple Mail problem are using Yosemite (it's a mixed bag of Snow Leopard and Mountain Lion so far), but when we upgrade staff in the next year, this information will be good to have.

Thanks for sharing it.

 Beth

On Wed, Jan 28, 2015 at 9:34 AM, Vivian Sophia <[hidden email]> wrote:
Beth, there is a new setting in the Yosemite version of Apple mail that "fixes" your settings so that they are broken. It is on the advanced tab of the account settings. You need to uncheck "automatically detect and maintain account settings" because it will change the settings to calmail.berkeley.edu (based off the mx record, I presume).

You will have to remove the "fixed" account and re-do it, then uncheck the setting, to prevent Mail from "fixing" it back into a broken state.



Vivian Sophia
Berkeley IT (CSS)
Business/Tech Support Analyst
University of California, Berkeley
310B Durant Hall
<a href="tel:%28510%29%20541-6120" value="+15105416120" target="_blank">(510) 541-6120


On Wed, Jan 28, 2015 at 9:11 AM, Beth Muramoto <[hidden email]> wrote:
Full disclosure, this email is as much to seek answers, inconclusive or otherwise, but to also find out how many people are using Apple Mail in general.

Users who are using Apple Mail like it because they can juggle multiple accounts in one place. It's not the only client that does it but being an Apple environment, it seemed the logical route to take for us. This feature is why some people didn't leave it for bMail on the web.

However, frequently, users have been reporting that Apple Mail will lose their passwords/google keys and they have to re-enter them. Sometimes just doing that isn't good enough and they have to delete their accounts and re-create them and even that often doesn't work. 

Case in Point: One user has a particularly puzzling behavior in that Mail on his iPhone for bMail works perfectly so I know that his account and google key are correct, but no matter how many times I delete his bMail account and re-enter all of the credentials, he can't get bMail on his Apple Mail. It just keeps spitting out the window to enter his password.  I'm hoping to avoid deleting a plist that could mean re-entering his other accounts (yahoo, personal gmail and a couple of other accounts stemming from consultant work) as they are working and to be honest, this user isn't very patient and telling him to start all over again would be tantamount to "killing the messenger". Think of this as selfish self-preservation on my part (hee).

So the specific question is does anyone have any suggestions on what else I can try to make the bMail "stick" in Apple Mail. I've been using the KB instructions in bconnected as well.

The general question (and I have googled this with all kinds of descriptors and have found nothing concrete): Does anyone know what triggers this strange password "amnesia" in Apple Mail?

Lastly, is there another client software that works well on a Mac for multiple accounts? Admission: I've only worked with Thunderbird and Outlook minimally and years ago and wasn't too impressed with their interface then and some users I gave those options to weren't impressed either. So new options are welcome or convincing "sales pitches" for Thunderbird and Outlook as they are today (since I'm assuming updates could have made them better than past versions years ago) are welcome as well.

Thanks for listening and as always I value and appreciate any feedback offered.


Beth

--
***********************************************
Beth Muramoto
Computer Resource Specialist
Graduate School of Education
University of California, Berkeley
1650 Tolman Hall
Berkeley, CA 94720
Email:  mailto:[hidden email]
Phone:  <a href="tel:%28510%29%20643-0203" value="+15106430203" target="_blank">(510) 643-0203 
Fax:  <a href="tel:%28510%29%20643-6239" value="+15106436239" target="_blank">(510) 643-6239

“Finish each day and be done with it. You have done what you could. Some blunders and absurdities have crept in – forget them as soon as you can. Tomorrow is a new day. You shall begin it serenely and with too high a spirit to be encumbered with your old nonsense.”
                            -Emerson

This is the essence of forgiveness. You can't change what happened but you can make sure it doesn't have the power to prevent you from being happy tomorrow.
                           
                             -Paul Boese

“Kind words do not cost much yet they accomplish much.” 

                            -Blaise Pascal


***********************************************



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--
***********************************************
Beth Muramoto
Computer Resource Specialist
Graduate School of Education
University of California, Berkeley
1650 Tolman Hall
Berkeley, CA 94720
Email:  mailto:[hidden email]
Phone:  <a href="tel:%28510%29%20643-0203" value="+15106430203" target="_blank">(510) 643-0203 
Fax:  <a href="tel:%28510%29%20643-6239" value="+15106436239" target="_blank">(510) 643-6239

“Finish each day and be done with it. You have done what you could. Some blunders and absurdities have crept in – forget them as soon as you can. Tomorrow is a new day. You shall begin it serenely and with too high a spirit to be encumbered with your old nonsense.”
                            -Emerson

This is the essence of forgiveness. You can't change what happened but you can make sure it doesn't have the power to prevent you from being happy tomorrow.
                           
                             -Paul Boese

“Kind words do not cost much yet they accomplish much.” 

                            -Blaise Pascal


***********************************************



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Re: [Micronet] Apple Mail Behaviors

Jon Forrest-3


On 1/28/2015 10:21 AM, Guy D. VINSON wrote:
> The simple solution is for everyone to adopt the web based mail
> interface... this hanging on to apple mail, Outlook, and even still some
> users on Eudora is just plain silly. I have heard all the arguments
> about needing the mail client but none of them seem to be more important
> than the benefits of simplification and standardization.

The silly argument I always use is that I know of no way with
the Gmail web interface to sort the display by anything other
than date. I routinely need this feature so I routinely use
Thunderbird.

If there were a web interface that did this, and didn't
force me to give up features I rely on, then I'd agree
with you.

Cordially,
Jon Forrest
UCB (ret.)

 
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Re: [Micronet] Apple Mail Behaviors

Graham Patterson
In reply to this post by Guy D. VINSON

For the vast majority of people, I agree. A lot of people cling to the
old and familiar.

I am still using Thunderbird because I currently have four email
accounts I need to monitor (but not integrate), my bCal, and a few RSS
feeds.

It also leaves my browsers free to use whatever logins I may need at any
time. I have four browsers available and often have two or more running
with different 'personalities'. I may be the exception that proves the rule!

Graham


On 1/28/15 10:21 AM, Guy D. VINSON wrote:

> The simple solution is for everyone to adopt the web based mail
> interface... this hanging on to apple mail, Outlook, and even still some
> users on Eudora is just plain silly. I have heard all the arguments
> about needing the mail client but none of them seem to be more important
> than the benefits of simplification and standardization.  
>
> Guy Vinson
> Computer Support and Consulting
> 510-842-7199
>
> On Wed, Jan 28, 2015 at 9:38 AM, Beth Muramoto <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>     Vivian,
>
>     This is great and useful information. None of the users who are
>     having this Apple Mail problem are using Yosemite (it's a mixed bag
>     of Snow Leopard and Mountain Lion so far), but when we upgrade staff
>     in the next year, this information will be good to have.
>
>     Thanks for sharing it.
>
>      Beth
>
>     On Wed, Jan 28, 2015 at 9:34 AM, Vivian Sophia
>     <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>         Beth, there is a new setting in the Yosemite version of Apple
>         mail that "fixes" your settings so that they are broken. It is
>         on the advanced tab of the account settings. You need to uncheck
>         "automatically detect and maintain account settings" because it
>         will change the settings to calmail.berkeley.edu
>         <http://calmail.berkeley.edu> (based off the mx record, I presume).
>
>         You will have to remove the "fixed" account and re-do it, then
>         uncheck the setting, to prevent Mail from "fixing" it back into
>         a broken state.
>
>
>
>         Vivian Sophia
>         Berkeley IT (CSS)
>         Business/Tech Support Analyst
>         University of California, Berkeley
>         310B Durant Hall
>         (510) 541-6120 <tel:%28510%29%20541-6120>
>
>
>         On Wed, Jan 28, 2015 at 9:11 AM, Beth Muramoto
>         <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>             Full disclosure, this email is as much to seek answers,
>             inconclusive or otherwise, but to also find out how many
>             people are using Apple Mail in general.
>
>             Users who are using Apple Mail like it because they can
>             juggle multiple accounts in one place. It's not the only
>             client that does it but being an Apple environment, it
>             seemed the logical route to take for us. This feature is why
>             some people didn't leave it for bMail on the web.
>
>             However, frequently, users have been reporting that Apple
>             Mail will lose their passwords/google keys and they have to
>             re-enter them. Sometimes just doing that isn't good enough
>             and they have to delete their accounts and re-create them
>             and even that often doesn't work.
>
>             Case in Point: One user has a particularly puzzling behavior
>             in that Mail on his iPhone for bMail works perfectly so I
>             know that his account and google key are correct, but no
>             matter how many times I delete his bMail account and
>             re-enter all of the credentials, he can't get bMail on his
>             Apple Mail. It just keeps spitting out the window to enter
>             his password.  I'm hoping to avoid deleting a plist that
>             could mean re-entering his other accounts (yahoo, personal
>             gmail and a couple of other accounts stemming from
>             consultant work) as they are working and to be honest, this
>             user isn't very patient and telling him to start all over
>             again would be tantamount to "killing the messenger". Think
>             of this as selfish self-preservation on my part (hee).
>
>             So the specific question is does anyone have any suggestions
>             on what else I can try to make the bMail "stick" in Apple
>             Mail. I've been using the KB instructions in bconnected as well.
>
>             The general question (and I have googled this with all kinds
>             of descriptors and have found nothing concrete): Does anyone
>             know what triggers this strange password "amnesia" in Apple
>             Mail?
>
>             Lastly, is there another client software that works well on
>             a Mac for multiple accounts? Admission: I've only worked
>             with Thunderbird and Outlook minimally and years ago and
>             wasn't too impressed with their interface then and some
>             users I gave those options to weren't impressed either. So
>             new options are welcome or convincing "sales pitches" for
>             Thunderbird and Outlook as they are today (since I'm
>             assuming updates could have made them better than past
>             versions years ago) are welcome as well.
>
>             Thanks for listening and as always I value and appreciate
>             any feedback offered.
>
>
>             Beth
>
>             --
>             ***********************************************
>             Beth Muramoto
>             Computer Resource Specialist
>             Graduate School of Education
>             University of California, Berkeley
>             1650 Tolman Hall
>             Berkeley, CA 94720
>             Email:  mailto:[hidden email]
>             <mailto:[hidden email]>
>             Phone:  (510) 643-0203 <tel:%28510%29%20643-0203>
>             Fax:  (510) 643-6239 <tel:%28510%29%20643-6239>
>
>             “Finish each day and be done with it. You have done what you
>             could. Some blunders and absurdities have crept in – forget
>             them as soon as you can. Tomorrow is a new day. You shall
>             begin it serenely and with too high a spirit to be
>             encumbered with your old nonsense.”
>                                         -Emerson
>
>             This is the essence of forgiveness. You can't change what
>             happened but you can make sure it doesn't have the power to
>             prevent you from being happy tomorrow.
>                                        
>                                          -Paul Boese
>
>             “Kind words do not cost much yet they accomplish much.”
>
>                                         -Blaise Pascal
>
>
>             ***********************************************
>
>
>
>             -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>             The following was automatically added to this message by the
>             list server:
>
>             To learn more about Micronet, including how to subscribe to
>             or unsubscribe from its mailing list and how to find out
>             about upcoming meetings, please visit the Micronet Web site:
>
>             http://micronet.berkeley.edu
>
>             Messages you send to this mailing list are public and
>             world-viewable, and the list's archives can be browsed and
>             searched on the Internet.  This means these messages can be
>             viewed by (among others) your bosses, prospective employers,
>             and people who have known you in the past.
>
>
>
>
>
>     --
>     ***********************************************
>     Beth Muramoto
>     Computer Resource Specialist
>     Graduate School of Education
>     University of California, Berkeley
>     1650 Tolman Hall
>     Berkeley, CA 94720
>     Email:  mailto:[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>     Phone:  (510) 643-0203 <tel:%28510%29%20643-0203>
>     Fax:  (510) 643-6239 <tel:%28510%29%20643-6239>
>
>     “Finish each day and be done with it. You have done what you could.
>     Some blunders and absurdities have crept in – forget them as soon as
>     you can. Tomorrow is a new day. You shall begin it serenely and with
>     too high a spirit to be encumbered with your old nonsense.”
>                                 -Emerson
>
>     This is the essence of forgiveness. You can't change what happened
>     but you can make sure it doesn't have the power to prevent you from
>     being happy tomorrow.
>                                
>                                  -Paul Boese
>
>     “Kind words do not cost much yet they accomplish much.”
>
>                                 -Blaise Pascal
>
>
>     ***********************************************
>
>
>
>     -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>     The following was automatically added to this message by the list
>     server:
>
>     To learn more about Micronet, including how to subscribe to or
>     unsubscribe from its mailing list and how to find out about upcoming
>     meetings, please visit the Micronet Web site:
>
>     http://micronet.berkeley.edu
>
>     Messages you send to this mailing list are public and
>     world-viewable, and the list's archives can be browsed and searched
>     on the Internet.  This means these messages can be viewed by (among
>     others) your bosses, prospective employers, and people who have
>     known you in the past.
>
>
>
>
>  
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> The following was automatically added to this message by the list server:
>
> To learn more about Micronet, including how to subscribe to or unsubscribe from its mailing list and how to find out about upcoming meetings, please visit the Micronet Web site:
>
> http://micronet.berkeley.edu
>
> Messages you send to this mailing list are public and world-viewable, and the list's archives can be browsed and searched on the Internet.  This means these messages can be viewed by (among others) your bosses, prospective employers, and people who have known you in the past.
>


--
Graham Patterson, Systems Administrator
Lawrence Hall of Science, UC Berkeley   510-643-1984
"...past the iguana, the tyrannosaurus, the mastodon, the mathematical
puzzles, and the meteorite..." - used to be the directions to my office.

 
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Re: [Micronet] Apple Mail Behaviors

Ian Crew
In reply to this post by Guy D. VINSON
Guy:

I think your point is very valid for a great majority of people, yes.  

However, there are plenty of folks out there with needs that aren't met by today's web-based email solutions.  For example, for me personally, while I do use the bMail interface for a lot of my work, I also keep Apple Mail running, as it allows me to monitor 7 different email accounts (spread across 4 different email hosting companies) and unify that into a single "Today" view.  I realize that I'm and IT geek and that that's probably an extreme case, but there are a lot of similar use cases on campus.  For example, many people need to monitor both their departmental and personal accounts and be alerted when a new email arrives to either.  There are also many researchers with both an @berkeley.edu and an @lbl.gov address that need to be able to check and reply to messages on both accounts on a regular basis.  

So, yes, if you're generally just working with your personal @berkeley.edu email address, switching to the web UI is a great choice these days.  In particular, the integration between Mail and Calendar is really nice, and always having a consistent environment regardless of where you check your mail from is very convenient.  Still that's (unfortunately) not going to work for everyone.

Cheers,

Ian


On Wed, Jan 28, 2015 at 10:21 AM, Guy D. VINSON <[hidden email]> wrote:
The simple solution is for everyone to adopt the web based mail interface... this hanging on to apple mail, Outlook, and even still some users on Eudora is just plain silly. I have heard all the arguments about needing the mail client but none of them seem to be more important than the benefits of simplification and standardization.  

Guy Vinson
Computer Support and Consulting
<a href="tel:510-842-7199" value="+15108427199" target="_blank">510-842-7199

On Wed, Jan 28, 2015 at 9:38 AM, Beth Muramoto <[hidden email]> wrote:
Vivian,

This is great and useful information. None of the users who are having this Apple Mail problem are using Yosemite (it's a mixed bag of Snow Leopard and Mountain Lion so far), but when we upgrade staff in the next year, this information will be good to have.

Thanks for sharing it.

 Beth

On Wed, Jan 28, 2015 at 9:34 AM, Vivian Sophia <[hidden email]> wrote:
Beth, there is a new setting in the Yosemite version of Apple mail that "fixes" your settings so that they are broken. It is on the advanced tab of the account settings. You need to uncheck "automatically detect and maintain account settings" because it will change the settings to calmail.berkeley.edu (based off the mx record, I presume).

You will have to remove the "fixed" account and re-do it, then uncheck the setting, to prevent Mail from "fixing" it back into a broken state.



Vivian Sophia
Berkeley IT (CSS)
Business/Tech Support Analyst
University of California, Berkeley
310B Durant Hall
<a href="tel:%28510%29%20541-6120" value="+15105416120" target="_blank">(510) 541-6120


On Wed, Jan 28, 2015 at 9:11 AM, Beth Muramoto <[hidden email]> wrote:
Full disclosure, this email is as much to seek answers, inconclusive or otherwise, but to also find out how many people are using Apple Mail in general.

Users who are using Apple Mail like it because they can juggle multiple accounts in one place. It's not the only client that does it but being an Apple environment, it seemed the logical route to take for us. This feature is why some people didn't leave it for bMail on the web.

However, frequently, users have been reporting that Apple Mail will lose their passwords/google keys and they have to re-enter them. Sometimes just doing that isn't good enough and they have to delete their accounts and re-create them and even that often doesn't work. 

Case in Point: One user has a particularly puzzling behavior in that Mail on his iPhone for bMail works perfectly so I know that his account and google key are correct, but no matter how many times I delete his bMail account and re-enter all of the credentials, he can't get bMail on his Apple Mail. It just keeps spitting out the window to enter his password.  I'm hoping to avoid deleting a plist that could mean re-entering his other accounts (yahoo, personal gmail and a couple of other accounts stemming from consultant work) as they are working and to be honest, this user isn't very patient and telling him to start all over again would be tantamount to "killing the messenger". Think of this as selfish self-preservation on my part (hee).

So the specific question is does anyone have any suggestions on what else I can try to make the bMail "stick" in Apple Mail. I've been using the KB instructions in bconnected as well.

The general question (and I have googled this with all kinds of descriptors and have found nothing concrete): Does anyone know what triggers this strange password "amnesia" in Apple Mail?

Lastly, is there another client software that works well on a Mac for multiple accounts? Admission: I've only worked with Thunderbird and Outlook minimally and years ago and wasn't too impressed with their interface then and some users I gave those options to weren't impressed either. So new options are welcome or convincing "sales pitches" for Thunderbird and Outlook as they are today (since I'm assuming updates could have made them better than past versions years ago) are welcome as well.

Thanks for listening and as always I value and appreciate any feedback offered.


Beth

--
***********************************************
Beth Muramoto
Computer Resource Specialist
Graduate School of Education
University of California, Berkeley
1650 Tolman Hall
Berkeley, CA 94720
Email:  mailto:[hidden email]
Phone:  <a href="tel:%28510%29%20643-0203" value="+15106430203" target="_blank">(510) 643-0203 
Fax:  <a href="tel:%28510%29%20643-6239" value="+15106436239" target="_blank">(510) 643-6239

“Finish each day and be done with it. You have done what you could. Some blunders and absurdities have crept in – forget them as soon as you can. Tomorrow is a new day. You shall begin it serenely and with too high a spirit to be encumbered with your old nonsense.”
                            -Emerson

This is the essence of forgiveness. You can't change what happened but you can make sure it doesn't have the power to prevent you from being happy tomorrow.
                           
                             -Paul Boese

“Kind words do not cost much yet they accomplish much.” 

                            -Blaise Pascal


***********************************************



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To learn more about Micronet, including how to subscribe to or unsubscribe from its mailing list and how to find out about upcoming meetings, please visit the Micronet Web site:

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Messages you send to this mailing list are public and world-viewable, and the list's archives can be browsed and searched on the Internet.  This means these messages can be viewed by (among others) your bosses, prospective employers, and people who have known you in the past.





--
***********************************************
Beth Muramoto
Computer Resource Specialist
Graduate School of Education
University of California, Berkeley
1650 Tolman Hall
Berkeley, CA 94720
Email:  mailto:[hidden email]
Phone:  <a href="tel:%28510%29%20643-0203" value="+15106430203" target="_blank">(510) 643-0203 
Fax:  <a href="tel:%28510%29%20643-6239" value="+15106436239" target="_blank">(510) 643-6239

“Finish each day and be done with it. You have done what you could. Some blunders and absurdities have crept in – forget them as soon as you can. Tomorrow is a new day. You shall begin it serenely and with too high a spirit to be encumbered with your old nonsense.”
                            -Emerson

This is the essence of forgiveness. You can't change what happened but you can make sure it doesn't have the power to prevent you from being happy tomorrow.
                           
                             -Paul Boese

“Kind words do not cost much yet they accomplish much.” 

                            -Blaise Pascal


***********************************************



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--
___
Ian Crew

IST-Architecture, Platforms and Integration (API)
Earl Warren Hall, Second Floor
University of California, Berkeley

 
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Re: [Micronet] Apple Mail Behaviors

erol
In reply to this post by Guy D. VINSON
I ran into some issues setting up Mail for a user who was also having no problems on his iPhone.  It may be the way you add the account.  I found that it worked using the “Add other mail account” selection, but did not work with the “Google” selection.

Also had to rebuild the mailboxes as search was not working properly.

I’ve been testing out Postbox myself (on 10.9.5) and so far it seems fairly good.  It’s $9.95 for a single license, but there is volume pricing discounting down to $4.95 for 20+.  Not sure if they have any additional discounting for education, but I’ve submitted a request.  

I’m using Mail (Postbox) as I find it much easier to sort and search.  The web interface just isn’t good enough, and I have other mail accounts I want to be checking as well.  

Erol 


On Jan 28, 2015, at 10:21 AM, Guy D. VINSON <[hidden email]> wrote:

The simple solution is for everyone to adopt the web based mail interface... this hanging on to apple mail, Outlook, and even still some users on Eudora is just plain silly. I have heard all the arguments about needing the mail client but none of them seem to be more important than the benefits of simplification and standardization.  

Guy Vinson
Computer Support and Consulting
510-842-7199

On Wed, Jan 28, 2015 at 9:38 AM, Beth Muramoto <[hidden email]> wrote:
Vivian,

This is great and useful information. None of the users who are having this Apple Mail problem are using Yosemite (it's a mixed bag of Snow Leopard and Mountain Lion so far), but when we upgrade staff in the next year, this information will be good to have.

Thanks for sharing it.

 Beth

On Wed, Jan 28, 2015 at 9:34 AM, Vivian Sophia <[hidden email]> wrote:
Beth, there is a new setting in the Yosemite version of Apple mail that "fixes" your settings so that they are broken. It is on the advanced tab of the account settings. You need to uncheck "automatically detect and maintain account settings" because it will change the settings to calmail.berkeley.edu (based off the mx record, I presume).

You will have to remove the "fixed" account and re-do it, then uncheck the setting, to prevent Mail from "fixing" it back into a broken state.



Vivian Sophia
Berkeley IT (CSS)
Business/Tech Support Analyst
University of California, Berkeley
310B Durant Hall
<a href="tel:%28510%29%20541-6120" value="+15105416120" target="_blank">(510) 541-6120


On Wed, Jan 28, 2015 at 9:11 AM, Beth Muramoto <[hidden email]> wrote:
Full disclosure, this email is as much to seek answers, inconclusive or otherwise, but to also find out how many people are using Apple Mail in general.

Users who are using Apple Mail like it because they can juggle multiple accounts in one place. It's not the only client that does it but being an Apple environment, it seemed the logical route to take for us. This feature is why some people didn't leave it for bMail on the web.

However, frequently, users have been reporting that Apple Mail will lose their passwords/google keys and they have to re-enter them. Sometimes just doing that isn't good enough and they have to delete their accounts and re-create them and even that often doesn't work. 

Case in Point: One user has a particularly puzzling behavior in that Mail on his iPhone for bMail works perfectly so I know that his account and google key are correct, but no matter how many times I delete his bMail account and re-enter all of the credentials, he can't get bMail on his Apple Mail. It just keeps spitting out the window to enter his password.  I'm hoping to avoid deleting a plist that could mean re-entering his other accounts (yahoo, personal gmail and a couple of other accounts stemming from consultant work) as they are working and to be honest, this user isn't very patient and telling him to start all over again would be tantamount to "killing the messenger". Think of this as selfish self-preservation on my part (hee).

So the specific question is does anyone have any suggestions on what else I can try to make the bMail "stick" in Apple Mail. I've been using the KB instructions in bconnected as well.

The general question (and I have googled this with all kinds of descriptors and have found nothing concrete): Does anyone know what triggers this strange password "amnesia" in Apple Mail?

Lastly, is there another client software that works well on a Mac for multiple accounts? Admission: I've only worked with Thunderbird and Outlook minimally and years ago and wasn't too impressed with their interface then and some users I gave those options to weren't impressed either. So new options are welcome or convincing "sales pitches" for Thunderbird and Outlook as they are today (since I'm assuming updates could have made them better than past versions years ago) are welcome as well.

Thanks for listening and as always I value and appreciate any feedback offered.


Beth

--
***********************************************
Beth Muramoto
Computer Resource Specialist
Graduate School of Education
University of California, Berkeley
1650 Tolman Hall
Berkeley, CA 94720
Email:  mailto:[hidden email]
Phone:  <a href="tel:%28510%29%20643-0203" value="+15106430203" target="_blank">(510) 643-0203 
Fax:  <a href="tel:%28510%29%20643-6239" value="+15106436239" target="_blank">(510) 643-6239

“Finish each day and be done with it. You have done what you could. Some blunders and absurdities have crept in – forget them as soon as you can. Tomorrow is a new day. You shall begin it serenely and with too high a spirit to be encumbered with your old nonsense.”
                            -Emerson

This is the essence of forgiveness. You can't change what happened but you can make sure it doesn't have the power to prevent you from being happy tomorrow.
                           
                             -Paul Boese

“Kind words do not cost much yet they accomplish much.” 

                            -Blaise Pascal


***********************************************



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--
***********************************************
Beth Muramoto
Computer Resource Specialist
Graduate School of Education
University of California, Berkeley
1650 Tolman Hall
Berkeley, CA 94720
Email:  mailto:[hidden email]
Phone:  <a href="tel:%28510%29%20643-0203" value="+15106430203" target="_blank">(510) 643-0203 
Fax:  <a href="tel:%28510%29%20643-6239" value="+15106436239" target="_blank">(510) 643-6239

“Finish each day and be done with it. You have done what you could. Some blunders and absurdities have crept in – forget them as soon as you can. Tomorrow is a new day. You shall begin it serenely and with too high a spirit to be encumbered with your old nonsense.”
                            -Emerson

This is the essence of forgiveness. You can't change what happened but you can make sure it doesn't have the power to prevent you from being happy tomorrow.
                           
                             -Paul Boese

“Kind words do not cost much yet they accomplish much.” 

                            -Blaise Pascal


***********************************************



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Re: [Micronet] Apple Mail Behaviors

Guy D. VINSON
In reply to this post by Jon Forrest-3
I do get that there are some people who have special needs, and special problems, but if your goal is to simplify and streamline tech support and save money then a few things need to change. If someone needs to use a mail client then have at it, but the support of that client should fall on that user and not on the support people who likely have better things to do. I spent far too much time trying to transfer email archives from one client to another or recovering those archives when they became corrupted. Nothing brought me more anxiety that trying to "save" mail from one of those clients gone wonky. Because someone prefers the features of a mail client over the web interface that should not over ride the needs of the institution to make things work well at as cheap a price as possible. My opinion and not likely to change anything... 

Guy Vinson
Computer Support and Consulting
510-842-7199

On Wed, Jan 28, 2015 at 10:35 AM, Jon Forrest <[hidden email]> wrote:


On 1/28/2015 10:21 AM, Guy D. VINSON wrote:
> The simple solution is for everyone to adopt the web based mail
> interface... this hanging on to apple mail, Outlook, and even still some
> users on Eudora is just plain silly. I have heard all the arguments
> about needing the mail client but none of them seem to be more important
> than the benefits of simplification and standardization.

The silly argument I always use is that I know of no way with
the Gmail web interface to sort the display by anything other
than date. I routinely need this feature so I routinely use
Thunderbird.

If there were a web interface that did this, and didn't
force me to give up features I rely on, then I'd agree
with you.

Cordially,
Jon Forrest
UCB (ret.)


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Re: [Micronet] Apple Mail Behaviors

David Schwartz
In reply to this post by Guy D. VINSON
On Jan 28, 2015, at 10:21 AM, Guy D. VINSON <[hidden email]> wrote (in a slightly different order):
>
> ...this hanging on to apple mail, Outlook, and even still some users on Eudora is just plain silly. I have heard all the arguments about needing the mail client but none of them seem to be more important than the benefits of simplification and standardization.

Certainly there is little case to be made for attempting to continue using a software application that ended development 9 years ago (no matter how unmatched its interface). Or a multifunction application that doesn’t support open standards for anything other than IMAP.

But in the case of Mail, Apple is actively developing a native application that supports Gmail’s sudo IMAP label scheme, and in my experience does a reasonably good job of it (even with the nightmare of Yosemite’s new features). And OS X's unified support for CarDAV and CalDAV provides a quality alternative or adjunct to Google’s web based tools.



> Because someone prefers the features of a mail client over the web interface that should not over ride the needs of the institution to make things work well at as cheap a price as possible.

Couching the discussion as one of simple preference or lowest possible price without taking worker productivity into account is short sighted. If a tool saves a worker 30 minutes a day, do we refuse to provide that tool because it costs management a one time 15 minute setup penalty?

I’ve not seen any of the problems Beth reports in her initial post, and I agree with Ian (as I always do) that the user’s Keychain should be the first place to look. In my experience, once configured it just continues to work.

But it doesn’t matter if the user is interacting with messages in Google’s basket using HTML or using IMAP; the messages are still stored in Oregon* and not locally (thanks to user training and documentation?). We now have unlimited storage space with our service provider; converting or rescuing should be a thing of the past.



-david


* http://www.google.com/about/datacenters/inside/locations/
 
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Re: [Micronet] Apple Mail Behaviors

Beth Muramoto
In reply to this post by Guy D. VINSON
Great discussion and addresses all of our IT challenges about knowing where support should "end"  for something when the needs of various populations need to be met regardless of perceived practical usage (one person's organizational style versus another's).

I've been on the Eudora precipice for years. When we went from Snow Leopard to Mountain Lion, there were still a couple of people who refused to upgrade if it meant losing Eudora, but finally had to give in if reluctantly. Though I wish we lived in Guy's world, I have to agree with Ian in that the very user who is having the Apple Mail problem with bMail juggles 3 other mail accounts and for all of the features Ian posed, he will still need Apple Mail or a client like it. Envisioning a work routine where a user is opening web access versions of each (yahoo, personal gmail, bMail and two other accounts) then toggling through each one to check their mail isn't really a practical option so I can't blame the user for refusing to accept that they can't use Apple Mail or any other client to keep their email lives sane and organized.

That said and as always with great gratitude for the suggestions by everyone, I will investigate the keychain access route to see if that is playing a factor. It does make complete sense. 

One question: Based on past experience, sometimes when users change their login passwords, the account associations in keychain access requires an old password associated when that keychain was created and more times than not, people can't remember what that was. Is there a simple method to bypass that without using Terminal, which admittedly, doesn't always work either?

Please do continue to suggest other clients that you have been successful at using. I am not adverse to suggesting to the user that maybe another client might be worth trying.

Thank you so much for the responses! I sincerely appreciate it!

Beth


On Wed, Jan 28, 2015 at 11:09 AM, Guy D. VINSON <[hidden email]> wrote:
I do get that there are some people who have special needs, and special problems, but if your goal is to simplify and streamline tech support and save money then a few things need to change. If someone needs to use a mail client then have at it, but the support of that client should fall on that user and not on the support people who likely have better things to do. I spent far too much time trying to transfer email archives from one client to another or recovering those archives when they became corrupted. Nothing brought me more anxiety that trying to "save" mail from one of those clients gone wonky. Because someone prefers the features of a mail client over the web interface that should not over ride the needs of the institution to make things work well at as cheap a price as possible. My opinion and not likely to change anything... 

Guy Vinson
Computer Support and Consulting
<a href="tel:510-842-7199" value="+15108427199" target="_blank">510-842-7199

On Wed, Jan 28, 2015 at 10:35 AM, Jon Forrest <[hidden email]> wrote:


On 1/28/2015 10:21 AM, Guy D. VINSON wrote:
> The simple solution is for everyone to adopt the web based mail
> interface... this hanging on to apple mail, Outlook, and even still some
> users on Eudora is just plain silly. I have heard all the arguments
> about needing the mail client but none of them seem to be more important
> than the benefits of simplification and standardization.

The silly argument I always use is that I know of no way with
the Gmail web interface to sort the display by anything other
than date. I routinely need this feature so I routinely use
Thunderbird.

If there were a web interface that did this, and didn't
force me to give up features I rely on, then I'd agree
with you.

Cordially,
Jon Forrest
UCB (ret.)


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--
***********************************************
Beth Muramoto
Computer Resource Specialist
Graduate School of Education
University of California, Berkeley
1650 Tolman Hall
Berkeley, CA 94720
Email:  mailto:[hidden email]
Phone:  <a href="tel:%28510%29%20643-0203" value="+15106430203" target="_blank">(510) 643-0203 
Fax:  <a href="tel:%28510%29%20643-6239" value="+15106436239" target="_blank">(510) 643-6239

“Finish each day and be done with it. You have done what you could. Some blunders and absurdities have crept in – forget them as soon as you can. Tomorrow is a new day. You shall begin it serenely and with too high a spirit to be encumbered with your old nonsense.”
                            -Emerson

This is the essence of forgiveness. You can't change what happened but you can make sure it doesn't have the power to prevent you from being happy tomorrow.
                           
                             -Paul Boese

“Kind words do not cost much yet they accomplish much.” 

                            -Blaise Pascal


***********************************************


 
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Re: [Micronet] Apple Mail Behaviors

Guy D. VINSON
In reply to this post by David Schwartz
Beth... my world now consists of being happily retired. But I thought the University was on track to centralize services such as IT and as a result bring costs down and the quality up (Please hold your laughter) But I guess that is as likely to happen as Cal is to get a winning football team with good grades. I think there are just too many "one offs" and too many chefs stirring the pot, trying to build their own little empires in IT and not enough will to make changes system wide. When it costs more to use a central service than to take it outside you have a problem...but I am off on a tangent. 

Regards 

Guy

Guy Vinson
Computer Support and Consulting
510-842-7199

On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 9:02 AM, David Schwartz <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Jan 28, 2015, at 10:21 AM, Guy D. VINSON <[hidden email]> wrote (in a slightly different order):
>
> ...this hanging on to apple mail, Outlook, and even still some users on Eudora is just plain silly. I have heard all the arguments about needing the mail client but none of them seem to be more important than the benefits of simplification and standardization.

Certainly there is little case to be made for attempting to continue using a software application that ended development 9 years ago (no matter how unmatched its interface). Or a multifunction application that doesn’t support open standards for anything other than IMAP.

But in the case of Mail, Apple is actively developing a native application that supports Gmail’s sudo IMAP label scheme, and in my experience does a reasonably good job of it (even with the nightmare of Yosemite’s new features). And OS X's unified support for CarDAV and CalDAV provides a quality alternative or adjunct to Google’s web based tools.



> Because someone prefers the features of a mail client over the web interface that should not over ride the needs of the institution to make things work well at as cheap a price as possible.

Couching the discussion as one of simple preference or lowest possible price without taking worker productivity into account is short sighted. If a tool saves a worker 30 minutes a day, do we refuse to provide that tool because it costs management a one time 15 minute setup penalty?

I’ve not seen any of the problems Beth reports in her initial post, and I agree with Ian (as I always do) that the user’s Keychain should be the first place to look. In my experience, once configured it just continues to work.

But it doesn’t matter if the user is interacting with messages in Google’s basket using HTML or using IMAP; the messages are still stored in Oregon* and not locally (thanks to user training and documentation?). We now have unlimited storage space with our service provider; converting or rescuing should be a thing of the past.



-david


* http://www.google.com/about/datacenters/inside/locations/

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Re: [Micronet] Apple Mail Behaviors

Vivian Sophia
Using other clients instead of the web interface results in more extra IT time than what it takes for the original setup -- It is not unusual for people to develop problems with their clients that they would not have if they were using the web interface. I spend much more time supporting fat mail clients than I do supporting mail in the web interface. Beth's problem is an example of the kind of things that happen, and now the University is paying Beth and everybody else involved in this conversation to figure out how to avoid using the campus -provided tools.

I have also spent huge amounts of time moving mail for people. Ugh.

I get that people have business reasons, sometimes, for using fat mail clients. I also see people use them for reasons like unwillingness to learn a new way of doing things, without regard to the extra cost to the University. 

It's not  hard to use tabs in a browser for different email accounts. You can even set up your browser to open them all at once and remember their passwords if you want. 

Yours curmudgeonly,

Vivian Sophia
Berkeley IT (CSS)
Business/Tech Support Analyst
University of California, Berkeley
310B Durant Hall
<a href="tel:%28510%29%20541-6120" value="+15105416120" target="_blank">(510) 541-6120


On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 1:48 PM, Guy D. VINSON <[hidden email]> wrote:
Beth... my world now consists of being happily retired. But I thought the University was on track to centralize services such as IT and as a result bring costs down and the quality up (Please hold your laughter) But I guess that is as likely to happen as Cal is to get a winning football team with good grades. I think there are just too many "one offs" and too many chefs stirring the pot, trying to build their own little empires in IT and not enough will to make changes system wide. When it costs more to use a central service than to take it outside you have a problem...but I am off on a tangent. 

Regards 

Guy

Guy Vinson
Computer Support and Consulting

On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 9:02 AM, David Schwartz <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Jan 28, 2015, at 10:21 AM, Guy D. VINSON <[hidden email]> wrote (in a slightly different order):
>
> ...this hanging on to apple mail, Outlook, and even still some users on Eudora is just plain silly. I have heard all the arguments about needing the mail client but none of them seem to be more important than the benefits of simplification and standardization.

Certainly there is little case to be made for attempting to continue using a software application that ended development 9 years ago (no matter how unmatched its interface). Or a multifunction application that doesn’t support open standards for anything other than IMAP.

But in the case of Mail, Apple is actively developing a native application that supports Gmail’s sudo IMAP label scheme, and in my experience does a reasonably good job of it (even with the nightmare of Yosemite’s new features). And OS X's unified support for CarDAV and CalDAV provides a quality alternative or adjunct to Google’s web based tools.



> Because someone prefers the features of a mail client over the web interface that should not over ride the needs of the institution to make things work well at as cheap a price as possible.

Couching the discussion as one of simple preference or lowest possible price without taking worker productivity into account is short sighted. If a tool saves a worker 30 minutes a day, do we refuse to provide that tool because it costs management a one time 15 minute setup penalty?

I’ve not seen any of the problems Beth reports in her initial post, and I agree with Ian (as I always do) that the user’s Keychain should be the first place to look. In my experience, once configured it just continues to work.

But it doesn’t matter if the user is interacting with messages in Google’s basket using HTML or using IMAP; the messages are still stored in Oregon* and not locally (thanks to user training and documentation?). We now have unlimited storage space with our service provider; converting or rescuing should be a thing of the past.



-david


* http://www.google.com/about/datacenters/inside/locations/

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Re: [Micronet] Apple Mail Behaviors

Jon Forrest-3


On 1/29/2015 2:04 PM, Vivian Sophia wrote:
> Using other clients instead of the web interface results in more extra
> IT time than what it takes for the original setup.

In the administrative areas of the University I'd agree. But,
it's important to remember that UC Berkeley is a university - not an
insurance company. There needs to be room for a massive amount
of variability and experimentation for students and researchers
who choose to move away from the straight and narrow.

> I have also spent huge amounts of time moving mail for people. Ugh.

With IMAP there's no need to move email. That's the whole point of IMAP.

> I get that people have business reasons, sometimes, for using fat mail
> clients. I also see people use them for reasons like unwillingness to
> learn a new way of doing things, without regard to the extra cost to the
> University.

If it were only this simple ... As I, and others, have said, sometimes
it's a question of not wanting to give up features that we have grown
accustomed to that we use daily. For example, show me how to sort my
Gmail by sender, subject, or any of the other columns that Gmail shows
(other than date, which, as far as I know, is the only possibility).

Trying to convince a typical desktop user to move from one program
to another, giving up important features simply to save the University
money, is a hard argument to make.

Cordially,
Jon Forrest
UCB (ret.)

 
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Re: [Micronet] Apple Mail Behaviors

Vivian Sophia
Jon, 

The mail client people use rarely has anything to do with research needs. When it does, that is a business reason, and I did acknowledge that business needs for fat clients sometimes exist.

I understand that keeping mail on Google's servers would prevent the need to move mail from computer to computer. Unfortunately, people don't always keep all their mail there. They keep things in local folders, which fat mail clients encourage them to do.

Sorting mail is an old way of working.
The new way of doing things is to let the computer (that is to say, its search engine) find things for you instead of using a sort to find them. It is also a quicker way of finding something than eyeing a sorted list.

I am totally aware of the difficulty of convincing people to change their ways. It's hard enough convincing IT people to change, let alone the rest.



Vivian Sophia
Berkeley IT (CSS)
Business/Tech Support Analyst
University of California, Berkeley
310B Durant Hall
(510) 541-6120


On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 2:23 PM, Jon Forrest <[hidden email]> wrote:


On 1/29/2015 2:04 PM, Vivian Sophia wrote:
> Using other clients instead of the web interface results in more extra
> IT time than what it takes for the original setup.

In the administrative areas of the University I'd agree. But,
it's important to remember that UC Berkeley is a university - not an
insurance company. There needs to be room for a massive amount
of variability and experimentation for students and researchers
who choose to move away from the straight and narrow.

> I have also spent huge amounts of time moving mail for people. Ugh.

With IMAP there's no need to move email. That's the whole point of IMAP.

> I get that people have business reasons, sometimes, for using fat mail
> clients. I also see people use them for reasons like unwillingness to
> learn a new way of doing things, without regard to the extra cost to the
> University.

If it were only this simple ... As I, and others, have said, sometimes
it's a question of not wanting to give up features that we have grown
accustomed to that we use daily. For example, show me how to sort my
Gmail by sender, subject, or any of the other columns that Gmail shows
(other than date, which, as far as I know, is the only possibility).

Trying to convince a typical desktop user to move from one program
to another, giving up important features simply to save the University
money, is a hard argument to make.

Cordially,
Jon Forrest
UCB (ret.)


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Re: [Micronet] Apple Mail Behaviors

Sharon K. Goetz
Hi, Vivian,

How human memory works is orthogonal to technological quirks or fashions. Sorting and spatial aspects can help to find things for which one cannot come up with satisfactory search terms, e.g. to dig up something that the prior holder of a SPA account misspelled, perhaps by accident, or a contact one hasn't thought about for more than a decade.

I currently have two departmental/SPA accounts, one personal, and I dutifully use different browsers for each. All of my non-campus email is accessed via Alpine, where roles work properly and folders aren't subject to silent corruption (sorry, Thunderbird). Google is trying to change Gmail's "archiving" and labeling model itself, so why rely upon it? Wave flopped; next is Inbox.

Sharon
not at all retired
--


On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 2:55 PM, Vivian Sophia <[hidden email]> wrote:
Jon, 

The mail client people use rarely has anything to do with research needs. When it does, that is a business reason, and I did acknowledge that business needs for fat clients sometimes exist.

I understand that keeping mail on Google's servers would prevent the need to move mail from computer to computer. Unfortunately, people don't always keep all their mail there. They keep things in local folders, which fat mail clients encourage them to do.

Sorting mail is an old way of working.
The new way of doing things is to let the computer (that is to say, its search engine) find things for you instead of using a sort to find them. It is also a quicker way of finding something than eyeing a sorted list.

I am totally aware of the difficulty of convincing people to change their ways. It's hard enough convincing IT people to change, let alone the rest.



Vivian Sophia
Berkeley IT (CSS)
Business/Tech Support Analyst
University of California, Berkeley
310B Durant Hall
<a href="tel:%28510%29%20541-6120" value="+15105416120" target="_blank">(510) 541-6120


 
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Re: [Micronet] Apple Mail Behaviors

Vivian Sophia
Thanks for your addition to the conversation, Sharon.

Just FYI, owners of SPAs are advised to add their own mail accounts as delegates; this enables you to have the SPA in the same browser.





Vivian Sophia
Berkeley IT (CSS)
Business/Tech Support Analyst
University of California, Berkeley
310B Durant Hall
(510) 541-6120


On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 3:18 PM, Sharon K. Goetz <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi, Vivian,

How human memory works is orthogonal to technological quirks or fashions. Sorting and spatial aspects can help to find things for which one cannot come up with satisfactory search terms, e.g. to dig up something that the prior holder of a SPA account misspelled, perhaps by accident, or a contact one hasn't thought about for more than a decade.

I currently have two departmental/SPA accounts, one personal, and I dutifully use different browsers for each. All of my non-campus email is accessed via Alpine, where roles work properly and folders aren't subject to silent corruption (sorry, Thunderbird). Google is trying to change Gmail's "archiving" and labeling model itself, so why rely upon it? Wave flopped; next is Inbox.

Sharon
not at all retired
--


On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 2:55 PM, Vivian Sophia <[hidden email]> wrote:
Jon, 

The mail client people use rarely has anything to do with research needs. When it does, that is a business reason, and I did acknowledge that business needs for fat clients sometimes exist.

I understand that keeping mail on Google's servers would prevent the need to move mail from computer to computer. Unfortunately, people don't always keep all their mail there. They keep things in local folders, which fat mail clients encourage them to do.

Sorting mail is an old way of working.
The new way of doing things is to let the computer (that is to say, its search engine) find things for you instead of using a sort to find them. It is also a quicker way of finding something than eyeing a sorted list.

I am totally aware of the difficulty of convincing people to change their ways. It's hard enough convincing IT people to change, let alone the rest.



Vivian Sophia
Berkeley IT (CSS)
Business/Tech Support Analyst
University of California, Berkeley
310B Durant Hall
<a href="tel:%28510%29%20541-6120" value="+15105416120" target="_blank">(510) 541-6120



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Re: [Micronet] Apple Mail Behaviors

Richard DeShong-2
An organization adds up the pluses and minuses related to a change and select a direction.  If an individual does the same thing, but only includes issues that pertain to themselves, they can easily come to a different decision.

But an individual is part of many groups, so I argue that one also needs to add in the affect on these groups by selecting a contrary route.  This might cause the individuals scales to tip in another direction.

Of course, getting someone to the point of considering the affect on their various groups might not be possible at any given time.

On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 4:01 PM, Vivian Sophia <[hidden email]> wrote:
Thanks for your addition to the conversation, Sharon.

Just FYI, owners of SPAs are advised to add their own mail accounts as delegates; this enables you to have the SPA in the same browser.





Vivian Sophia
Berkeley IT (CSS)
Business/Tech Support Analyst
University of California, Berkeley
310B Durant Hall
(510) 541-6120


On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 3:18 PM, Sharon K. Goetz <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi, Vivian,

How human memory works is orthogonal to technological quirks or fashions. Sorting and spatial aspects can help to find things for which one cannot come up with satisfactory search terms, e.g. to dig up something that the prior holder of a SPA account misspelled, perhaps by accident, or a contact one hasn't thought about for more than a decade.

I currently have two departmental/SPA accounts, one personal, and I dutifully use different browsers for each. All of my non-campus email is accessed via Alpine, where roles work properly and folders aren't subject to silent corruption (sorry, Thunderbird). Google is trying to change Gmail's "archiving" and labeling model itself, so why rely upon it? Wave flopped; next is Inbox.

Sharon
not at all retired
--


On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 2:55 PM, Vivian Sophia <[hidden email]> wrote:
Jon, 

The mail client people use rarely has anything to do with research needs. When it does, that is a business reason, and I did acknowledge that business needs for fat clients sometimes exist.

I understand that keeping mail on Google's servers would prevent the need to move mail from computer to computer. Unfortunately, people don't always keep all their mail there. They keep things in local folders, which fat mail clients encourage them to do.

Sorting mail is an old way of working.
The new way of doing things is to let the computer (that is to say, its search engine) find things for you instead of using a sort to find them. It is also a quicker way of finding something than eyeing a sorted list.

I am totally aware of the difficulty of convincing people to change their ways. It's hard enough convincing IT people to change, let alone the rest.



Vivian Sophia
Berkeley IT (CSS)
Business/Tech Support Analyst
University of California, Berkeley
310B Durant Hall
<a href="tel:%28510%29%20541-6120" value="+15105416120" target="_blank">(510) 541-6120



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--
Richard DeShong, Systems Analyst, Athletic Study Center, U.C.Berkeley
164 Chavez Student Center, Berkeley, CA, 94720-4220
510-642-5123     asc.berkeley.edu

 
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