[Micronet] Apps with browser requirements

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[Micronet] Apps with browser requirements

Richard DeShong-2
<rant>
The campus is rolling out a new app and, as seems typically annoying
these days, it has a browser "requirement".  Here's the text:

IMPORTANT: CalPlanning requires use of Internet Explorer 9 (IE9) for
reliable performance.

At least it has that "for reliable performance" part - meaning it will
actually run on other browsers.  But how unreliable is it going to be?
 And why is this acceptable?  And doesn't this sort of requirement put
a big negative up against the advantage of browser-based distribution?
</rant>
--
Richard DeShong, Systems Analyst, Athletic Study Center, U.C.Berkeley
164 Chavez Student Center, Berkeley, CA, 94720-4220
510-642-5123     asc.berkeley.edu

 
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Re: [Micronet] Apps with browser requirements

Tom Holub
A particularly annoying thing about CalPlanning is that most of its users also use BAIRS, which requires IE8.

We tried CalPlanning with IE8 and there were non-trivial issues (buttons missing).

As a mitigation, at least they've opened up RDC access; you can use RDC for either BAIRS or CalPlanning without having to jump through any hoops.  We're either going to set people up with RDC exclusively, or set up their IE for the application they use more often, and use RDC for the other one.

Another oddness: We're rolling out CalAnswers at the same time, another data warehouse facilitated by a Business Intelligence tool from Oracle.  But CalAnswers is using the latest OBIEE, which works cross-platform in Chrome as well as other browsers, while CalPlanning is using Hyperion, which is a product Oracle acquired and doesn't seem interested in.

On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 8:26 AM, Richard DESHONG <[hidden email]> wrote:
<rant>
The campus is rolling out a new app and, as seems typically annoying
these days, it has a browser "requirement".  Here's the text:

IMPORTANT: CalPlanning requires use of Internet Explorer 9 (IE9) for
reliable performance.

At least it has that "for reliable performance" part - meaning it will
actually run on other browsers.  But how unreliable is it going to be?
 And why is this acceptable?  And doesn't this sort of requirement put
a big negative up against the advantage of browser-based distribution?
</rant>
--
Richard DeShong, Systems Analyst, Athletic Study Center, U.C.Berkeley
164 Chavez Student Center, Berkeley, CA, 94720-4220
510-642-5123     asc.berkeley.edu


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--
Tom Holub ([hidden email], 510-642-9069)
Director of Computing, College of Letters & Science
101.D Durant Hall
<http://LSCR.berkeley.edu/>

 
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Re: [Micronet] Apps with browser requirements

Karen Kato
Hi All-

First let me acknowledge that managing the various browser/java versions required for the many critical applications to campus is a pain for both end user support and for those of us that are implementing these applications.

We are tackling this problem and will need to pull in folks to find the best solutions.  Let me know if you would like to volunteer to assist in determining our solution. 

Our objective is to have current versions of browsers/java running on clients on campus.  At the same time, we know that the application vendor's browser/java requirements will not always (mostly not) align to what we have installed on clients.  So, we have to figure out the least offensive solution for users that can be reasonably maintained by IT on campus. 

We are working on defining the preferred approach in next couple months and then we can start moving the applications to implement.  Let me know if you want to participate...

Thanks,
Karen
*********************
Karen Kato
Director of Enterprise Data
UC Berkeley - Information Services & Technology
2195 Hearst Ave, Berkeley, CA 94720
Desk:  510-643-3371, Cell:  510-303-6161, FAX:  510-643-5385



On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 8:34 AM, Tom Holub <[hidden email]> wrote:
A particularly annoying thing about CalPlanning is that most of its users also use BAIRS, which requires IE8.

We tried CalPlanning with IE8 and there were non-trivial issues (buttons missing).

As a mitigation, at least they've opened up RDC access; you can use RDC for either BAIRS or CalPlanning without having to jump through any hoops.  We're either going to set people up with RDC exclusively, or set up their IE for the application they use more often, and use RDC for the other one.

Another oddness: We're rolling out CalAnswers at the same time, another data warehouse facilitated by a Business Intelligence tool from Oracle.  But CalAnswers is using the latest OBIEE, which works cross-platform in Chrome as well as other browsers, while CalPlanning is using Hyperion, which is a product Oracle acquired and doesn't seem interested in.

On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 8:26 AM, Richard DESHONG <[hidden email]> wrote:
<rant>
The campus is rolling out a new app and, as seems typically annoying
these days, it has a browser "requirement".  Here's the text:

IMPORTANT: CalPlanning requires use of Internet Explorer 9 (IE9) for
reliable performance.

At least it has that "for reliable performance" part - meaning it will
actually run on other browsers.  But how unreliable is it going to be?
 And why is this acceptable?  And doesn't this sort of requirement put
a big negative up against the advantage of browser-based distribution?
</rant>
--
Richard DeShong, Systems Analyst, Athletic Study Center, U.C.Berkeley
164 Chavez Student Center, Berkeley, CA, 94720-4220
510-642-5123     asc.berkeley.edu


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--
Tom Holub ([hidden email], 510-642-9069)
Director of Computing, College of Letters & Science
101.D Durant Hall
<http://LSCR.berkeley.edu/>


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--

*********************
Karen Kato
Director of Enterprise Data
UC Berkeley - Information Services & Technology
2195 Hearst Ave, Berkeley, CA 94720
Desk:  510-643-3371, Cell:  510-303-6161, FAX:  510-643-5385

 
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Re: [Micronet] Apps with browser requirements

Richard DeShong-2
In reply to this post by Richard DeShong-2
Hi Tom,
I would say that missing buttons is not what I would call a
"reliability" issue, but a functional issue.  I just find it odd that
the industry is so set on the use browser distribution for
applications where the vast majority of users are sitting at the same
desktop, every day, using the software.

Hi Alex,
I appreciate the testing you've done.  I'm very aware of the various
versions of browsers.  I am not concerned that they are designing for
IE, instead of FF, or any other acronym.  I was thinking (ranting)
more along the lines of the system of distribution - using a browser
vs a specialized client.

There are some functions that fit beautifully into the browser style
of access.  My rant was based on the observation that it has now
become the standard means of access - even when it doesn't make any
sense.  In most cases, a client would be better for the end user.  And
then provide specialized functions that might be needed via a browser.

CalTime is a good example.  You want to review pay periods - yours
and/or your subordinates?  Then you want a client to provide a quick
UI.  What if you are sick and want to record that? Or you just want to
record your hours for today?  This would be a great use of a browser
style access that allows you to log in, enter a date and the details
and logout.

On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 8:35 AM, Alexander Warren
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Richard,
>
> While there is a lot of misinformation out there, I can tell you from
> experience that IE9 is pretty reliable.  It does have issues with the
> Hyperion plugin for BFS/BAIRS and the Dell punch out portal, but otherwise
> works pretty well with everything else I have seen on campus.  For those
> items I mentioned, I recommend Firefox.  It does work great with CalShare
> and gives a few features that you won't see with IE8 (that we don't use in
> our department...)
>
> Staying with IE8 isn't a good idea as it's not as secure as IE9.  If you
> want to use a good alternative, I would suggest Firefox over Chrome as FF
> is secure and still speedy.
>
> Alex Warren
> Facility Services IT
> University of California, Berkeley
> 2000 Carleton St., Room 240
> Berkeley, CA 94720
> Office: (510) 643-5523
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Richard
> DESHONG
> Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 8:27 AM
> To: Micronet List
> Subject: [Micronet] Apps with browser requirements
>
> <rant>
> The campus is rolling out a new app and, as seems typically annoying these
> days, it has a browser "requirement".  Here's the text:
>
> IMPORTANT: CalPlanning requires use of Internet Explorer 9 (IE9) for
> reliable performance.
>
> At least it has that "for reliable performance" part - meaning it will
> actually run on other browsers.  But how unreliable is it going to be?
>  And why is this acceptable?  And doesn't this sort of requirement put a
> big negative up against the advantage of browser-based distribution?
> </rant>
> --
> Richard DeShong, Systems Analyst, Athletic Study Center, U.C.Berkeley
> 164 Chavez Student Center, Berkeley, CA, 94720-4220
> 510-642-5123     asc.berkeley.edu
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> The following was automatically added to this message by the list server:
>
> To learn more about Micronet, including how to subscribe to or unsubscribe
> from its mailing list and how to find out about upcoming meetings, please
> visit the Micronet Web site:
>
> http://micronet.berkeley.edu
>
> Messages you send to this mailing list are public and world-viewable, and
> the list's archives can be browsed and searched on the Internet.  This
> means these messages can be viewed by (among others) your bosses,
> prospective employers, and people who have known you in the past.



--
Richard DeShong, Systems Analyst, Athletic Study Center, U.C.Berkeley
164 Chavez Student Center, Berkeley, CA, 94720-4220
510-642-5123     asc.berkeley.edu

 
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Re: [Micronet] Apps with browser requirements

Richard DeShong-2
Hi Karen,
I am willing.  How do I get involved.
(I'm replying on list in case others are interested)

On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 9:14 AM, Richard DESHONG <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Tom,
> I would say that missing buttons is not what I would call a
> "reliability" issue, but a functional issue.  I just find it odd that
> the industry is so set on the use browser distribution for
> applications where the vast majority of users are sitting at the same
> desktop, every day, using the software.
>
> Hi Alex,
> I appreciate the testing you've done.  I'm very aware of the various
> versions of browsers.  I am not concerned that they are designing for
> IE, instead of FF, or any other acronym.  I was thinking (ranting)
> more along the lines of the system of distribution - using a browser
> vs a specialized client.
>
> There are some functions that fit beautifully into the browser style
> of access.  My rant was based on the observation that it has now
> become the standard means of access - even when it doesn't make any
> sense.  In most cases, a client would be better for the end user.  And
> then provide specialized functions that might be needed via a browser.
>
> CalTime is a good example.  You want to review pay periods - yours
> and/or your subordinates?  Then you want a client to provide a quick
> UI.  What if you are sick and want to record that? Or you just want to
> record your hours for today?  This would be a great use of a browser
> style access that allows you to log in, enter a date and the details
> and logout.
>
> On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 8:35 AM, Alexander Warren
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Richard,
>>
>> While there is a lot of misinformation out there, I can tell you from
>> experience that IE9 is pretty reliable.  It does have issues with the
>> Hyperion plugin for BFS/BAIRS and the Dell punch out portal, but otherwise
>> works pretty well with everything else I have seen on campus.  For those
>> items I mentioned, I recommend Firefox.  It does work great with CalShare
>> and gives a few features that you won't see with IE8 (that we don't use in
>> our department...)
>>
>> Staying with IE8 isn't a good idea as it's not as secure as IE9.  If you
>> want to use a good alternative, I would suggest Firefox over Chrome as FF
>> is secure and still speedy.
>>
>> Alex Warren
>> Facility Services IT
>> University of California, Berkeley
>> 2000 Carleton St., Room 240
>> Berkeley, CA 94720
>> Office: (510) 643-5523
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [hidden email]
>> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Richard
>> DESHONG
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 8:27 AM
>> To: Micronet List
>> Subject: [Micronet] Apps with browser requirements
>>
>> <rant>
>> The campus is rolling out a new app and, as seems typically annoying these
>> days, it has a browser "requirement".  Here's the text:
>>
>> IMPORTANT: CalPlanning requires use of Internet Explorer 9 (IE9) for
>> reliable performance.
>>
>> At least it has that "for reliable performance" part - meaning it will
>> actually run on other browsers.  But how unreliable is it going to be?
>>  And why is this acceptable?  And doesn't this sort of requirement put a
>> big negative up against the advantage of browser-based distribution?
>> </rant>
>> --
>> Richard DeShong, Systems Analyst, Athletic Study Center, U.C.Berkeley
>> 164 Chavez Student Center, Berkeley, CA, 94720-4220
>> 510-642-5123     asc.berkeley.edu
>>
>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> The following was automatically added to this message by the list server:
>>
>> To learn more about Micronet, including how to subscribe to or unsubscribe
>> from its mailing list and how to find out about upcoming meetings, please
>> visit the Micronet Web site:
>>
>> http://micronet.berkeley.edu
>>
>> Messages you send to this mailing list are public and world-viewable, and
>> the list's archives can be browsed and searched on the Internet.  This
>> means these messages can be viewed by (among others) your bosses,
>> prospective employers, and people who have known you in the past.
>
>
>
> --
> Richard DeShong, Systems Analyst, Athletic Study Center, U.C.Berkeley
> 164 Chavez Student Center, Berkeley, CA, 94720-4220
> 510-642-5123     asc.berkeley.edu



--
Richard DeShong, Systems Analyst, Athletic Study Center, U.C.Berkeley
164 Chavez Student Center, Berkeley, CA, 94720-4220
510-642-5123     asc.berkeley.edu

 
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Messages you send to this mailing list are public and world-viewable, and the list's archives can be browsed and searched on the Internet.  This means these messages can be viewed by (among others) your bosses, prospective employers, and people who have known you in the past.
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Re: [Micronet] Apps with browser requirements

Tom Holub
In reply to this post by Richard DeShong-2
There's no reason why a browser solution can't provide good, quick UI.  Google Calender and Mail, for example, have UI-parity with desktop solutions--they're not identical, but it's hard to say that Thunderbird has an inherently better interface than Gmail.  

Specialized client applications are dead; we have a mobile workforce and client base which needs access from a variety of locations and devices.

On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 9:14 AM, Richard DESHONG <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Tom,
I would say that missing buttons is not what I would call a
"reliability" issue, but a functional issue.  I just find it odd that
the industry is so set on the use browser distribution for
applications where the vast majority of users are sitting at the same
desktop, every day, using the software.

Hi Alex,
I appreciate the testing you've done.  I'm very aware of the various
versions of browsers.  I am not concerned that they are designing for
IE, instead of FF, or any other acronym.  I was thinking (ranting)
more along the lines of the system of distribution - using a browser
vs a specialized client.

There are some functions that fit beautifully into the browser style
of access.  My rant was based on the observation that it has now
become the standard means of access - even when it doesn't make any
sense.  In most cases, a client would be better for the end user.  And
then provide specialized functions that might be needed via a browser.

CalTime is a good example.  You want to review pay periods - yours
and/or your subordinates?  Then you want a client to provide a quick
UI.  What if you are sick and want to record that? Or you just want to
record your hours for today?  This would be a great use of a browser
style access that allows you to log in, enter a date and the details
and logout.

On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 8:35 AM, Alexander Warren
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> Richard,
>
> While there is a lot of misinformation out there, I can tell you from
> experience that IE9 is pretty reliable.  It does have issues with the
> Hyperion plugin for BFS/BAIRS and the Dell punch out portal, but otherwise
> works pretty well with everything else I have seen on campus.  For those
> items I mentioned, I recommend Firefox.  It does work great with CalShare
> and gives a few features that you won't see with IE8 (that we don't use in
> our department...)
>
> Staying with IE8 isn't a good idea as it's not as secure as IE9.  If you
> want to use a good alternative, I would suggest Firefox over Chrome as FF
> is secure and still speedy.
>
> Alex Warren
> Facility Services IT
> University of California, Berkeley
> 2000 Carleton St., Room 240
> Berkeley, CA 94720
> Office: (510) 643-5523
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Richard
> DESHONG
> Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 8:27 AM
> To: Micronet List
> Subject: [Micronet] Apps with browser requirements
>
> <rant>
> The campus is rolling out a new app and, as seems typically annoying these
> days, it has a browser "requirement".  Here's the text:
>
> IMPORTANT: CalPlanning requires use of Internet Explorer 9 (IE9) for
> reliable performance.
>
> At least it has that "for reliable performance" part - meaning it will
> actually run on other browsers.  But how unreliable is it going to be?
>  And why is this acceptable?  And doesn't this sort of requirement put a
> big negative up against the advantage of browser-based distribution?
> </rant>
> --
> Richard DeShong, Systems Analyst, Athletic Study Center, U.C.Berkeley
> 164 Chavez Student Center, Berkeley, CA, 94720-4220
> 510-642-5123     asc.berkeley.edu
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> The following was automatically added to this message by the list server:
>
> To learn more about Micronet, including how to subscribe to or unsubscribe
> from its mailing list and how to find out about upcoming meetings, please
> visit the Micronet Web site:
>
> http://micronet.berkeley.edu
>
> Messages you send to this mailing list are public and world-viewable, and
> the list's archives can be browsed and searched on the Internet.  This
> means these messages can be viewed by (among others) your bosses,
> prospective employers, and people who have known you in the past.



--
Richard DeShong, Systems Analyst, Athletic Study Center, U.C.Berkeley
164 Chavez Student Center, Berkeley, CA, 94720-4220
510-642-5123     asc.berkeley.edu


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The following was automatically added to this message by the list server:

To learn more about Micronet, including how to subscribe to or unsubscribe from its mailing list and how to find out about upcoming meetings, please visit the Micronet Web site:

http://micronet.berkeley.edu

Messages you send to this mailing list are public and world-viewable, and the list's archives can be browsed and searched on the Internet.  This means these messages can be viewed by (among others) your bosses, prospective employers, and people who have known you in the past.



--
Tom Holub ([hidden email], 510-642-9069)
Director of Computing, College of Letters & Science
101.D Durant Hall
<http://LSCR.berkeley.edu/>

 
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To learn more about Micronet, including how to subscribe to or unsubscribe from its mailing list and how to find out about upcoming meetings, please visit the Micronet Web site:

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Re: [Micronet] Apps with browser requirements

Lawrence Sweet
In reply to this post by Richard DeShong-2
One option would be virtualized IE applications (IE + plugin X) that can be downloaded from something like software.berkeley.edu.

I had success software virtualizing an hyperion plugin with IE8 within a vmware created virtual application.


.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,
Lawrence Sweet
Applications Programmer II
ECSM
Haas School of Business
University of California, Berkeley
Bakar Computer Center
Cell 925-324-2855
.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,
________________________________________
From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] on behalf of Richard DESHONG [[hidden email]]
Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 9:17 AM
To: Micronet List
Subject: Re: [Micronet] Apps with browser requirements

Hi Karen,
I am willing.  How do I get involved.
(I'm replying on list in case others are interested)

On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 9:14 AM, Richard DESHONG <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Tom,
> I would say that missing buttons is not what I would call a
> "reliability" issue, but a functional issue.  I just find it odd that
> the industry is so set on the use browser distribution for
> applications where the vast majority of users are sitting at the same
> desktop, every day, using the software.
>
> Hi Alex,
> I appreciate the testing you've done.  I'm very aware of the various
> versions of browsers.  I am not concerned that they are designing for
> IE, instead of FF, or any other acronym.  I was thinking (ranting)
> more along the lines of the system of distribution - using a browser
> vs a specialized client.
>
> There are some functions that fit beautifully into the browser style
> of access.  My rant was based on the observation that it has now
> become the standard means of access - even when it doesn't make any
> sense.  In most cases, a client would be better for the end user.  And
> then provide specialized functions that might be needed via a browser.
>
> CalTime is a good example.  You want to review pay periods - yours
> and/or your subordinates?  Then you want a client to provide a quick
> UI.  What if you are sick and want to record that? Or you just want to
> record your hours for today?  This would be a great use of a browser
> style access that allows you to log in, enter a date and the details
> and logout.
>
> On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 8:35 AM, Alexander Warren
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Richard,
>>
>> While there is a lot of misinformation out there, I can tell you from
>> experience that IE9 is pretty reliable.  It does have issues with the
>> Hyperion plugin for BFS/BAIRS and the Dell punch out portal, but otherwise
>> works pretty well with everything else I have seen on campus.  For those
>> items I mentioned, I recommend Firefox.  It does work great with CalShare
>> and gives a few features that you won't see with IE8 (that we don't use in
>> our department...)
>>
>> Staying with IE8 isn't a good idea as it's not as secure as IE9.  If you
>> want to use a good alternative, I would suggest Firefox over Chrome as FF
>> is secure and still speedy.
>>
>> Alex Warren
>> Facility Services IT
>> University of California, Berkeley
>> 2000 Carleton St., Room 240
>> Berkeley, CA 94720
>> Office: (510) 643-5523
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [hidden email]
>> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Richard
>> DESHONG
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 8:27 AM
>> To: Micronet List
>> Subject: [Micronet] Apps with browser requirements
>>
>> <rant>
>> The campus is rolling out a new app and, as seems typically annoying these
>> days, it has a browser "requirement".  Here's the text:
>>
>> IMPORTANT: CalPlanning requires use of Internet Explorer 9 (IE9) for
>> reliable performance.
>>
>> At least it has that "for reliable performance" part - meaning it will
>> actually run on other browsers.  But how unreliable is it going to be?
>>  And why is this acceptable?  And doesn't this sort of requirement put a
>> big negative up against the advantage of browser-based distribution?
>> </rant>
>> --
>> Richard DeShong, Systems Analyst, Athletic Study Center, U.C.Berkeley
>> 164 Chavez Student Center, Berkeley, CA, 94720-4220
>> 510-642-5123     asc.berkeley.edu
>>
>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> The following was automatically added to this message by the list server:
>>
>> To learn more about Micronet, including how to subscribe to or unsubscribe
>> from its mailing list and how to find out about upcoming meetings, please
>> visit the Micronet Web site:
>>
>> http://micronet.berkeley.edu
>>
>> Messages you send to this mailing list are public and world-viewable, and
>> the list's archives can be browsed and searched on the Internet.  This
>> means these messages can be viewed by (among others) your bosses,
>> prospective employers, and people who have known you in the past.
>
>
>
> --
> Richard DeShong, Systems Analyst, Athletic Study Center, U.C.Berkeley
> 164 Chavez Student Center, Berkeley, CA, 94720-4220
> 510-642-5123     asc.berkeley.edu



--
Richard DeShong, Systems Analyst, Athletic Study Center, U.C.Berkeley
164 Chavez Student Center, Berkeley, CA, 94720-4220
510-642-5123     asc.berkeley.edu


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Re: [Micronet] Apps with browser requirements

Christopher Brooks
In reply to this post by Tom Holub
RDP is even more dead, it is difficult to use from a handheld etc.

Can someone with some say in what gets deployed decide that using RDP is not an acceptable alternative and be only used for limited-rollout/testing/betaware at the unit level, say less than 100 seats?

Actually, I use RDP quite a bit, but if an application is so fragile that it requires RDP because it is not browser-independent, then it is a clear sign that said application is not enterprise-ready and should not be deployed at the campus level.

The overall quality of applications deployed is decreasing over time.  CalTime is unusable.  Any web page that requires training and a cheat sheet is incomplete and should be redesigned.   I don't have to take training to make plane reservations, do banking, use gmail or use bCal.

Deploying applications is good, but deploying half-baked applications too early wastes our time and hurts the project in the long term.

_Christopher

On 2/13/13 9:22 AM, Tom Holub wrote:
There's no reason why a browser solution can't provide good, quick UI.  Google Calender and Mail, for example, have UI-parity with desktop solutions--they're not identical, but it's hard to say that Thunderbird has an inherently better interface than Gmail.  

Specialized client applications are dead; we have a mobile workforce and client base which needs access from a variety of locations and devices.

On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 9:14 AM, Richard DESHONG <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Tom,
I would say that missing buttons is not what I would call a
"reliability" issue, but a functional issue.  I just find it odd that
the industry is so set on the use browser distribution for
applications where the vast majority of users are sitting at the same
desktop, every day, using the software.

Hi Alex,
I appreciate the testing you've done.  I'm very aware of the various
versions of browsers.  I am not concerned that they are designing for
IE, instead of FF, or any other acronym.  I was thinking (ranting)
more along the lines of the system of distribution - using a browser
vs a specialized client.

There are some functions that fit beautifully into the browser style
of access.  My rant was based on the observation that it has now
become the standard means of access - even when it doesn't make any
sense.  In most cases, a client would be better for the end user.  And
then provide specialized functions that might be needed via a browser.

CalTime is a good example.  You want to review pay periods - yours
and/or your subordinates?  Then you want a client to provide a quick
UI.  What if you are sick and want to record that? Or you just want to
record your hours for today?  This would be a great use of a browser
style access that allows you to log in, enter a date and the details
and logout.

On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 8:35 AM, Alexander Warren
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> Richard,
>
> While there is a lot of misinformation out there, I can tell you from
> experience that IE9 is pretty reliable.  It does have issues with the
> Hyperion plugin for BFS/BAIRS and the Dell punch out portal, but otherwise
> works pretty well with everything else I have seen on campus.  For those
> items I mentioned, I recommend Firefox.  It does work great with CalShare
> and gives a few features that you won't see with IE8 (that we don't use in
> our department...)
>
> Staying with IE8 isn't a good idea as it's not as secure as IE9.  If you
> want to use a good alternative, I would suggest Firefox over Chrome as FF
> is secure and still speedy.
>
> Alex Warren
> Facility Services IT
> University of California, Berkeley
> 2000 Carleton St., Room 240
> Berkeley, CA 94720
> Office: (510) 643-5523
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Richard
> DESHONG
> Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 8:27 AM
> To: Micronet List
> Subject: [Micronet] Apps with browser requirements
>
> <rant>
> The campus is rolling out a new app and, as seems typically annoying these
> days, it has a browser "requirement".  Here's the text:
>
> IMPORTANT: CalPlanning requires use of Internet Explorer 9 (IE9) for
> reliable performance.
>
> At least it has that "for reliable performance" part - meaning it will
> actually run on other browsers.  But how unreliable is it going to be?
>  And why is this acceptable?  And doesn't this sort of requirement put a
> big negative up against the advantage of browser-based distribution?
> </rant>
> --
> Richard DeShong, Systems Analyst, Athletic Study Center, U.C.Berkeley
> 164 Chavez Student Center, Berkeley, CA, 94720-4220
> 510-642-5123     asc.berkeley.edu
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> The following was automatically added to this message by the list server:
>
> To learn more about Micronet, including how to subscribe to or unsubscribe
> from its mailing list and how to find out about upcoming meetings, please
> visit the Micronet Web site:
>
> http://micronet.berkeley.edu
>
> Messages you send to this mailing list are public and world-viewable, and
> the list's archives can be browsed and searched on the Internet.  This
> means these messages can be viewed by (among others) your bosses,
> prospective employers, and people who have known you in the past.



--
Richard DeShong, Systems Analyst, Athletic Study Center, U.C.Berkeley
164 Chavez Student Center, Berkeley, CA, 94720-4220
510-642-5123     asc.berkeley.edu


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--
Tom Holub ([hidden email], 510-642-9069)
Director of Computing, College of Letters & Science
101.D Durant Hall
<http://LSCR.berkeley.edu/>


 
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-- 
Christopher Brooks, PMP                       University of California
CHESS Executive Director                      US Mail: 337 Cory Hall
Programmer/Analyst CHESS/Ptolemy/Trust        Berkeley, CA 94720-1774
ph: 510.643.9841                                (Office: 545Q Cory)
home: (F-Tu) 707.665.0131 cell: 707.332.0670 

 
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Re: [Micronet] Apps with browser requirements

Michael Leung
In reply to this post by Lawrence Sweet
Actually, both BAIRS and Cal Planning have remote application "vitual" apps that can be downloaded from software.berkeley.edu.  Please let me know if you need more information on that.

Mike

On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 9:35 AM, Lawrence Sweet <[hidden email]> wrote:
One option would be virtualized IE applications (IE + plugin X) that can be downloaded from something like software.berkeley.edu.

I had success software virtualizing an hyperion plugin with IE8 within a vmware created virtual application.


.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,
Lawrence Sweet
Applications Programmer II
ECSM
Haas School of Business
University of California, Berkeley
Bakar Computer Center
Cell 925-324-2855
.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,
________________________________________
From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] on behalf of Richard DESHONG [[hidden email]]
Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 9:17 AM
To: Micronet List
Subject: Re: [Micronet] Apps with browser requirements

Hi Karen,
I am willing.  How do I get involved.
(I'm replying on list in case others are interested)

On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 9:14 AM, Richard DESHONG <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Hi Tom,
> I would say that missing buttons is not what I would call a
> "reliability" issue, but a functional issue.  I just find it odd that
> the industry is so set on the use browser distribution for
> applications where the vast majority of users are sitting at the same
> desktop, every day, using the software.
>
> Hi Alex,
> I appreciate the testing you've done.  I'm very aware of the various
> versions of browsers.  I am not concerned that they are designing for
> IE, instead of FF, or any other acronym.  I was thinking (ranting)
> more along the lines of the system of distribution - using a browser
> vs a specialized client.
>
> There are some functions that fit beautifully into the browser style
> of access.  My rant was based on the observation that it has now
> become the standard means of access - even when it doesn't make any
> sense.  In most cases, a client would be better for the end user.  And
> then provide specialized functions that might be needed via a browser.
>
> CalTime is a good example.  You want to review pay periods - yours
> and/or your subordinates?  Then you want a client to provide a quick
> UI.  What if you are sick and want to record that? Or you just want to
> record your hours for today?  This would be a great use of a browser
> style access that allows you to log in, enter a date and the details
> and logout.
>
> On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 8:35 AM, Alexander Warren
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Richard,
>>
>> While there is a lot of misinformation out there, I can tell you from
>> experience that IE9 is pretty reliable.  It does have issues with the
>> Hyperion plugin for BFS/BAIRS and the Dell punch out portal, but otherwise
>> works pretty well with everything else I have seen on campus.  For those
>> items I mentioned, I recommend Firefox.  It does work great with CalShare
>> and gives a few features that you won't see with IE8 (that we don't use in
>> our department...)
>>
>> Staying with IE8 isn't a good idea as it's not as secure as IE9.  If you
>> want to use a good alternative, I would suggest Firefox over Chrome as FF
>> is secure and still speedy.
>>
>> Alex Warren
>> Facility Services IT
>> University of California, Berkeley
>> 2000 Carleton St., Room 240
>> Berkeley, CA 94720
>> Office: (510) 643-5523
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [hidden email]
>> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Richard
>> DESHONG
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 8:27 AM
>> To: Micronet List
>> Subject: [Micronet] Apps with browser requirements
>>
>> <rant>
>> The campus is rolling out a new app and, as seems typically annoying these
>> days, it has a browser "requirement".  Here's the text:
>>
>> IMPORTANT: CalPlanning requires use of Internet Explorer 9 (IE9) for
>> reliable performance.
>>
>> At least it has that "for reliable performance" part - meaning it will
>> actually run on other browsers.  But how unreliable is it going to be?
>>  And why is this acceptable?  And doesn't this sort of requirement put a
>> big negative up against the advantage of browser-based distribution?
>> </rant>
>> --
>> Richard DeShong, Systems Analyst, Athletic Study Center, U.C.Berkeley
>> 164 Chavez Student Center, Berkeley, CA, 94720-4220
>> 510-642-5123     asc.berkeley.edu
>>
>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> The following was automatically added to this message by the list server:
>>
>> To learn more about Micronet, including how to subscribe to or unsubscribe
>> from its mailing list and how to find out about upcoming meetings, please
>> visit the Micronet Web site:
>>
>> http://micronet.berkeley.edu
>>
>> Messages you send to this mailing list are public and world-viewable, and
>> the list's archives can be browsed and searched on the Internet.  This
>> means these messages can be viewed by (among others) your bosses,
>> prospective employers, and people who have known you in the past.
>
>
>
> --
> Richard DeShong, Systems Analyst, Athletic Study Center, U.C.Berkeley
> 164 Chavez Student Center, Berkeley, CA, 94720-4220
> 510-642-5123     asc.berkeley.edu



--
Richard DeShong, Systems Analyst, Athletic Study Center, U.C.Berkeley
164 Chavez Student Center, Berkeley, CA, 94720-4220
510-642-5123     asc.berkeley.edu


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Re: [Micronet] Apps with browser requirements

William
In reply to this post by Tom Holub
"I suppose it is tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail." -- Abraham Maslow

The browser has become the hammer.  You can create specialized client applications to connect through the internet.  Thunderbird, Pidgin, Adium, SSH, VNC(through a tunnel), NX Client, X11, Remote Desktop,  etc. are all specialized clients that allow you to connect online.

I prefer specialized clients over a web browser interface, because keyboard shortcuts just don't work as well through some of the browser GUI layer.  They work well for the browser itself, but not the underlying app.  I suppose that if you use a Mac, you might already be used to some of the missing keyboard shortcuts or single mouse button and can adjust to an even more limited set on a browser. (Yes, you can add or set them on the Mac.  They're not on by default and the few people that do set them don't set them the same way.)

William

      On 2/13/13 9:22 AM, Tom Holub wrote:
There's no reason why a browser solution can't provide good, quick UI.  Google Calender and Mail, for example, have UI-parity with desktop solutions--they're not identical, but it's hard to say that Thunderbird has an inherently better interface than Gmail.  

Specialized client applications are dead; we have a mobile workforce and client base which needs access from a variety of locations and devices.

On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 9:14 AM, Richard DESHONG <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Tom,
I would say that missing buttons is not what I would call a
"reliability" issue, but a functional issue.  I just find it odd that
the industry is so set on the use browser distribution for
applications where the vast majority of users are sitting at the same
desktop, every day, using the software.

Hi Alex,
I appreciate the testing you've done.  I'm very aware of the various
versions of browsers.  I am not concerned that they are designing for
IE, instead of FF, or any other acronym.  I was thinking (ranting)
more along the lines of the system of distribution - using a browser
vs a specialized client.

There are some functions that fit beautifully into the browser style
of access.  My rant was based on the observation that it has now
become the standard means of access - even when it doesn't make any
sense.  In most cases, a client would be better for the end user.  And
then provide specialized functions that might be needed via a browser.

CalTime is a good example.  You want to review pay periods - yours
and/or your subordinates?  Then you want a client to provide a quick
UI.  What if you are sick and want to record that? Or you just want to
record your hours for today?  This would be a great use of a browser
style access that allows you to log in, enter a date and the details
and logout.

On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 8:35 AM, Alexander Warren
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> Richard,
>
> While there is a lot of misinformation out there, I can tell you from
> experience that IE9 is pretty reliable.  It does have issues with the
> Hyperion plugin for BFS/BAIRS and the Dell punch out portal, but otherwise
> works pretty well with everything else I have seen on campus.  For those
> items I mentioned, I recommend Firefox.  It does work great with CalShare
> and gives a few features that you won't see with IE8 (that we don't use in
> our department...)
>
> Staying with IE8 isn't a good idea as it's not as secure as IE9.  If you
> want to use a good alternative, I would suggest Firefox over Chrome as FF
> is secure and still speedy.
>
> Alex Warren
> Facility Services IT
> University of California, Berkeley
> 2000 Carleton St., Room 240
> Berkeley, CA 94720
> Office: (510) 643-5523
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Richard
> DESHONG
> Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 8:27 AM
> To: Micronet List
> Subject: [Micronet] Apps with browser requirements
>
> <rant>
> The campus is rolling out a new app and, as seems typically annoying these
> days, it has a browser "requirement".  Here's the text:
>
> IMPORTANT: CalPlanning requires use of Internet Explorer 9 (IE9) for
> reliable performance.
>
> At least it has that "for reliable performance" part - meaning it will
> actually run on other browsers.  But how unreliable is it going to be?
>  And why is this acceptable?  And doesn't this sort of requirement put a
> big negative up against the advantage of browser-based distribution?
> </rant>
> --
> Richard DeShong, Systems Analyst, Athletic Study Center, U.C.Berkeley
> 164 Chavez Student Center, Berkeley, CA, 94720-4220
> 510-642-5123     asc.berkeley.edu
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> The following was automatically added to this message by the list server:
>
> To learn more about Micronet, including how to subscribe to or unsubscribe
> from its mailing list and how to find out about upcoming meetings, please
> visit the Micronet Web site:
>
> http://micronet.berkeley.edu
>
> Messages you send to this mailing list are public and world-viewable, and
> the list's archives can be browsed and searched on the Internet.  This
> means these messages can be viewed by (among others) your bosses,
> prospective employers, and people who have known you in the past.



--
Richard DeShong, Systems Analyst, Athletic Study Center, U.C.Berkeley
164 Chavez Student Center, Berkeley, CA, 94720-4220
510-642-5123     asc.berkeley.edu


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--
Tom Holub ([hidden email], 510-642-9069)
Director of Computing, College of Letters & Science
101.D Durant Hall
<http://LSCR.berkeley.edu/>


 
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Re: [Micronet] Apps with browser requirements

Ian Crew
In reply to this post by Tom Holub

On Feb 13, 2013, at 9:22 AM, Tom Holub <[hidden email]> wrote:

There's no reason why a browser solution can't provide good, quick UI.  Google Calender and Mail, for example, have UI-parity with desktop solutions--they're not identical, but it's hard to say that Thunderbird has an inherently better interface than Gmail.  

Specialized client applications are dead; we have a mobile workforce and client base which needs access from a variety of locations and devices.

I totally agree with Tom.  I would hope that Karen--or someone else in the know--could explain why we continue to invest in new systems that depend on specific versions of specific browsers,  specific versions of client-side browser plugins (especially plug-ins for highly insecure technologies like Java and Flash), and specific OS platforms.  I totally get that some of this pain isn't an option for legacy systems, but I strongly feel that we're just perpetuating the problem if we continue to invest in platforms with these obvious flaws.  

This is especially true because so many companies--Google especially--have clearly demonstrated that such antiquated solutions are no longer necessary.  It's entirely possible to develop extremely rich UIs that are cross-browser, cross-platform, and just use native browser code (HTML5, etc.) with no plug-ins required.

So why do we continue to roll out new systems that are still doing things the old way?

Thanks,

Ian

___
Ian Crew
Platform and Services Manager, Research Hub

Migration Coordinator, bConnected Project

IST-Architecture, Platforms and Integration (API)
Earl Warren Hall, Second Floor
University of California, Berkeley


 
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Re: [Micronet] Apps with browser requirements

Tom Holub
In reply to this post by Michael Leung
Aren't those "virtual" apps just RDP with the OS UI hidden?

On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 9:43 AM, Michael LEUNG <[hidden email]> wrote:
Actually, both BAIRS and Cal Planning have remote application "vitual" apps that can be downloaded from software.berkeley.edu.  Please let me know if you need more information on that.

Mike


On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 9:35 AM, Lawrence Sweet <[hidden email]> wrote:
One option would be virtualized IE applications (IE + plugin X) that can be downloaded from something like software.berkeley.edu.

I had success software virtualizing an hyperion plugin with IE8 within a vmware created virtual application.


.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,
Lawrence Sweet
Applications Programmer II
ECSM
Haas School of Business
University of California, Berkeley
Bakar Computer Center
Cell 925-324-2855
.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,
________________________________________
From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] on behalf of Richard DESHONG [[hidden email]]
Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 9:17 AM
To: Micronet List
Subject: Re: [Micronet] Apps with browser requirements

Hi Karen,
I am willing.  How do I get involved.
(I'm replying on list in case others are interested)

On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 9:14 AM, Richard DESHONG <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Hi Tom,
> I would say that missing buttons is not what I would call a
> "reliability" issue, but a functional issue.  I just find it odd that
> the industry is so set on the use browser distribution for
> applications where the vast majority of users are sitting at the same
> desktop, every day, using the software.
>
> Hi Alex,
> I appreciate the testing you've done.  I'm very aware of the various
> versions of browsers.  I am not concerned that they are designing for
> IE, instead of FF, or any other acronym.  I was thinking (ranting)
> more along the lines of the system of distribution - using a browser
> vs a specialized client.
>
> There are some functions that fit beautifully into the browser style
> of access.  My rant was based on the observation that it has now
> become the standard means of access - even when it doesn't make any
> sense.  In most cases, a client would be better for the end user.  And
> then provide specialized functions that might be needed via a browser.
>
> CalTime is a good example.  You want to review pay periods - yours
> and/or your subordinates?  Then you want a client to provide a quick
> UI.  What if you are sick and want to record that? Or you just want to
> record your hours for today?  This would be a great use of a browser
> style access that allows you to log in, enter a date and the details
> and logout.
>
> On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 8:35 AM, Alexander Warren
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Richard,
>>
>> While there is a lot of misinformation out there, I can tell you from
>> experience that IE9 is pretty reliable.  It does have issues with the
>> Hyperion plugin for BFS/BAIRS and the Dell punch out portal, but otherwise
>> works pretty well with everything else I have seen on campus.  For those
>> items I mentioned, I recommend Firefox.  It does work great with CalShare
>> and gives a few features that you won't see with IE8 (that we don't use in
>> our department...)
>>
>> Staying with IE8 isn't a good idea as it's not as secure as IE9.  If you
>> want to use a good alternative, I would suggest Firefox over Chrome as FF
>> is secure and still speedy.
>>
>> Alex Warren
>> Facility Services IT
>> University of California, Berkeley
>> 2000 Carleton St., Room 240
>> Berkeley, CA 94720
>> Office: (510) 643-5523
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [hidden email]
>> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Richard
>> DESHONG
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 8:27 AM
>> To: Micronet List
>> Subject: [Micronet] Apps with browser requirements
>>
>> <rant>
>> The campus is rolling out a new app and, as seems typically annoying these
>> days, it has a browser "requirement".  Here's the text:
>>
>> IMPORTANT: CalPlanning requires use of Internet Explorer 9 (IE9) for
>> reliable performance.
>>
>> At least it has that "for reliable performance" part - meaning it will
>> actually run on other browsers.  But how unreliable is it going to be?
>>  And why is this acceptable?  And doesn't this sort of requirement put a
>> big negative up against the advantage of browser-based distribution?
>> </rant>
>> --
>> Richard DeShong, Systems Analyst, Athletic Study Center, U.C.Berkeley
>> 164 Chavez Student Center, Berkeley, CA, 94720-4220
>> 510-642-5123     asc.berkeley.edu
>>
>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> The following was automatically added to this message by the list server:
>>
>> To learn more about Micronet, including how to subscribe to or unsubscribe
>> from its mailing list and how to find out about upcoming meetings, please
>> visit the Micronet Web site:
>>
>> http://micronet.berkeley.edu
>>
>> Messages you send to this mailing list are public and world-viewable, and
>> the list's archives can be browsed and searched on the Internet.  This
>> means these messages can be viewed by (among others) your bosses,
>> prospective employers, and people who have known you in the past.
>
>
>
> --
> Richard DeShong, Systems Analyst, Athletic Study Center, U.C.Berkeley
> 164 Chavez Student Center, Berkeley, CA, 94720-4220
> 510-642-5123     asc.berkeley.edu



--
Richard DeShong, Systems Analyst, Athletic Study Center, U.C.Berkeley
164 Chavez Student Center, Berkeley, CA, 94720-4220
510-642-5123     asc.berkeley.edu


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Tom Holub ([hidden email], 510-642-9069)
Director of Computing, College of Letters & Science
101.D Durant Hall
<http://LSCR.berkeley.edu/>

 
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Re: [Micronet] Apps with browser requirements

Jon Forrest-3
In reply to this post by Ian Crew
On 2/13/2013 9:52 AM, Ian Crew wrote:

> So why do we continue to roll out new systems that are still doing
> things the old way?

This is one of the key questions that was raised
when the concept of Operational Excellence was first
being discussed.

Jon Forrest
UCB - ret.


 
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Re: [Micronet] Apps with browser requirements

Tom Holub
In reply to this post by Karen Kato
I know that this decision is unlikely to have come from the IT side, but it seems particularly silly that we're rolling out two different data warehouse/BI tools at the same time.  Could you speak to why CalPlanning is using Hyperion and CalAnswers is using OBIEE?

On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 8:56 AM, Karen KATO <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi All-

First let me acknowledge that managing the various browser/java versions required for the many critical applications to campus is a pain for both end user support and for those of us that are implementing these applications.

We are tackling this problem and will need to pull in folks to find the best solutions.  Let me know if you would like to volunteer to assist in determining our solution. 

Our objective is to have current versions of browsers/java running on clients on campus.  At the same time, we know that the application vendor's browser/java requirements will not always (mostly not) align to what we have installed on clients.  So, we have to figure out the least offensive solution for users that can be reasonably maintained by IT on campus. 

We are working on defining the preferred approach in next couple months and then we can start moving the applications to implement.  Let me know if you want to participate...

Thanks,
Karen
*********************
Karen Kato
Director of Enterprise Data
UC Berkeley - Information Services & Technology
2195 Hearst Ave, Berkeley, CA 94720
Desk:  510-643-3371, Cell:  510-303-6161, FAX:  510-643-5385



On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 8:34 AM, Tom Holub <[hidden email]> wrote:
A particularly annoying thing about CalPlanning is that most of its users also use BAIRS, which requires IE8.

We tried CalPlanning with IE8 and there were non-trivial issues (buttons missing).

As a mitigation, at least they've opened up RDC access; you can use RDC for either BAIRS or CalPlanning without having to jump through any hoops.  We're either going to set people up with RDC exclusively, or set up their IE for the application they use more often, and use RDC for the other one.

Another oddness: We're rolling out CalAnswers at the same time, another data warehouse facilitated by a Business Intelligence tool from Oracle.  But CalAnswers is using the latest OBIEE, which works cross-platform in Chrome as well as other browsers, while CalPlanning is using Hyperion, which is a product Oracle acquired and doesn't seem interested in.

On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 8:26 AM, Richard DESHONG <[hidden email]> wrote:
<rant>
The campus is rolling out a new app and, as seems typically annoying
these days, it has a browser "requirement".  Here's the text:

IMPORTANT: CalPlanning requires use of Internet Explorer 9 (IE9) for
reliable performance.

At least it has that "for reliable performance" part - meaning it will
actually run on other browsers.  But how unreliable is it going to be?
 And why is this acceptable?  And doesn't this sort of requirement put
a big negative up against the advantage of browser-based distribution?
</rant>
--
Richard DeShong, Systems Analyst, Athletic Study Center, U.C.Berkeley
164 Chavez Student Center, Berkeley, CA, 94720-4220
510-642-5123     asc.berkeley.edu


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Director of Computing, College of Letters & Science
101.D Durant Hall
<http://LSCR.berkeley.edu/>


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--

*********************
Karen Kato
Director of Enterprise Data
UC Berkeley - Information Services & Technology
2195 Hearst Ave, Berkeley, CA 94720
Desk:  510-643-3371, Cell:  510-303-6161, FAX:  510-643-5385



--
Tom Holub ([hidden email], 510-642-9069)
Director of Computing, College of Letters & Science
101.D Durant Hall
<http://LSCR.berkeley.edu/>

 
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Re: [Micronet] Apps with browser requirements

Jeff Anderson-Lee
In reply to this post by William
So you have to write an Android App, and and iOS app, and a Windows app, and ...?

That's even worse than writing to IE9 and FF18 and Safari6 and ...

You *may* need a different UI for hand-held/touch and full-screen/keyboard but development environments that only target specific versions of clients be it browsers or apps should *NOT* be allowed for developing mission critical apps in a BYOD world. Live with a simpler interface or at least provide one for doing the essential tasks. I *like* HTML5 for instance, but *requiring* it (or worse, a particular instantiation) for running an app in a company with tens of thousands of employees and distributed purchasing/IT support is asking for problems, at least for another 5 years or so.

If a web-based UI cannot run on at least a 3-year old browser, it should not be let out the door. (Not that anyone should be running a 3-year old browser anymore, for security reasons, but it should not depend on newer features.)

Jeff Anderson-Lee

On 2/13/2013 9:48 AM, William wrote:
"I suppose it is tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail." -- Abraham Maslow

The browser has become the hammer.  You can create specialized client applications to connect through the internet.  Thunderbird, Pidgin, Adium, SSH, VNC(through a tunnel), NX Client, X11, Remote Desktop,  etc. are all specialized clients that allow you to connect online.

I prefer specialized clients over a web browser interface, because keyboard shortcuts just don't work as well through some of the browser GUI layer.  They work well for the browser itself, but not the underlying app.  I suppose that if you use a Mac, you might already be used to some of the missing keyboard shortcuts or single mouse button and can adjust to an even more limited set on a browser. (Yes, you can add or set them on the Mac.  They're not on by default and the few people that do set them don't set them the same way.)

William
On 2/13/13 9:22 AM, Tom Holub wrote:
There's no reason why a browser solution can't provide good, quick UI.  Google Calender and Mail, for example, have UI-parity with desktop solutions--they're not identical, but it's hard to say that Thunderbird has an inherently better interface than Gmail.  

Specialized client applications are dead; we have a mobile workforce and client base which needs access from a variety of locations and devices.

On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 9:14 AM, Richard DESHONG <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Tom,
I would say that missing buttons is not what I would call a
"reliability" issue, but a functional issue.  I just find it odd that
the industry is so set on the use browser distribution for
applications where the vast majority of users are sitting at the same
desktop, every day, using the software.

Hi Alex,
I appreciate the testing you've done.  I'm very aware of the various
versions of browsers.  I am not concerned that they are designing for
IE, instead of FF, or any other acronym.  I was thinking (ranting)
more along the lines of the system of distribution - using a browser
vs a specialized client.

There are some functions that fit beautifully into the browser style
of access.  My rant was based on the observation that it has now
become the standard means of access - even when it doesn't make any
sense.  In most cases, a client would be better for the end user.  And
then provide specialized functions that might be needed via a browser.

CalTime is a good example.  You want to review pay periods - yours
and/or your subordinates?  Then you want a client to provide a quick
UI.  What if you are sick and want to record that? Or you just want to
record your hours for today?  This would be a great use of a browser
style access that allows you to log in, enter a date and the details
and logout.

On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 8:35 AM, Alexander Warren
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> Richard,
>
> While there is a lot of misinformation out there, I can tell you from
> experience that IE9 is pretty reliable.  It does have issues with the
> Hyperion plugin for BFS/BAIRS and the Dell punch out portal, but otherwise
> works pretty well with everything else I have seen on campus.  For those
> items I mentioned, I recommend Firefox.  It does work great with CalShare
> and gives a few features that you won't see with IE8 (that we don't use in
> our department...)
>
> Staying with IE8 isn't a good idea as it's not as secure as IE9.  If you
> want to use a good alternative, I would suggest Firefox over Chrome as FF
> is secure and still speedy.
>
> Alex Warren
> Facility Services IT
> University of California, Berkeley
> 2000 Carleton St., Room 240
> Berkeley, CA 94720
> Office: (510) 643-5523
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Richard
> DESHONG
> Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 8:27 AM
> To: Micronet List
> Subject: [Micronet] Apps with browser requirements
>
> <rant>
> The campus is rolling out a new app and, as seems typically annoying these
> days, it has a browser "requirement".  Here's the text:
>
> IMPORTANT: CalPlanning requires use of Internet Explorer 9 (IE9) for
> reliable performance.
>
> At least it has that "for reliable performance" part - meaning it will
> actually run on other browsers.  But how unreliable is it going to be?
>  And why is this acceptable?  And doesn't this sort of requirement put a
> big negative up against the advantage of browser-based distribution?
> </rant>
> --
> Richard DeShong, Systems Analyst, Athletic Study Center, U.C.Berkeley
> 164 Chavez Student Center, Berkeley, CA, 94720-4220
> 510-642-5123     asc.berkeley.edu
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> The following was automatically added to this message by the list server:
>
> To learn more about Micronet, including how to subscribe to or unsubscribe
> from its mailing list and how to find out about upcoming meetings, please
> visit the Micronet Web site:
>
> http://micronet.berkeley.edu
>
> Messages you send to this mailing list are public and world-viewable, and
> the list's archives can be browsed and searched on the Internet.  This
> means these messages can be viewed by (among others) your bosses,
> prospective employers, and people who have known you in the past.



--
Richard DeShong, Systems Analyst, Athletic Study Center, U.C.Berkeley
164 Chavez Student Center, Berkeley, CA, 94720-4220
510-642-5123     asc.berkeley.edu


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--
Tom Holub ([hidden email], 510-642-9069)
Director of Computing, College of Letters & Science
101.D Durant Hall
<http://LSCR.berkeley.edu/>


 
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Re: [Micronet] Apps with browser requirements

Ryan Lovett-2
In reply to this post by Ian Crew
I also agree with you and Tom, but we are not Google and don't have the
budget they do to develop (or license?) software like that. Unless we want
to start soliciting ads for vacation destinations on CalTime. :)

Can we set software standards that vendors are required to meet? Perhaps
we're already doing that but the standards are not optimal or up-to-date
for the user population.

Ryan

On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 09:52:56AM -0800, Ian Crew wrote:

>
> On Feb 13, 2013, at 9:22 AM, Tom Holub <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > There's no reason why a browser solution can't provide good, quick UI.  Google Calender and Mail, for example, have UI-parity with desktop solutions--they're not identical, but it's hard to say that Thunderbird has an inherently better interface than Gmail.  
> >
> > Specialized client applications are dead; we have a mobile workforce and client base which needs access from a variety of locations and devices.
>
>
> I totally agree with Tom.  I would hope that Karen--or someone else in the know--could explain why we continue to invest in new systems that depend on specific versions of specific browsers,  specific versions of client-side browser plugins (especially plug-ins for highly insecure technologies like Java and Flash), and specific OS platforms.  I totally get that some of this pain isn't an option for legacy systems, but I strongly feel that we're just perpetuating the problem if we continue to invest in platforms with these obvious flaws.  
>
> This is especially true because so many companies--Google especially--have clearly demonstrated that such antiquated solutions are no longer necessary.  It's entirely possible to develop extremely rich UIs that are cross-browser, cross-platform, and just use native browser code (HTML5, etc.) with no plug-ins required.
>
> So why do we continue to roll out new systems that are still doing things the old way?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ian
>
> ___
> Ian Crew
> Platform and Services Manager, Research Hub
> http://hub.berkeley.edu
>
> Migration Coordinator, bConnected Project
> http://bconnected-project.berkeley.edu
>
> IST-Architecture, Platforms and Integration (API)
> Earl Warren Hall, Second Floor
> University of California, Berkeley
>

>  
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>
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Re: [Micronet] Apps with browser requirements

John Torres-O'Callaghan
In reply to this post by Tom Holub
Tom,

This brings us right back to the original problem - if "we have a mobile workforce and client base which needs access from a variety of locations and devices" then applications which depend on having a particular version of a particular browser are a bad idea.  It's one thing to require a new-enough browser to support a particular technology, but if you're going to build an application that depends on some unique feature of a particular browser, then you've got most of the same problems as a non-browser application but without being in control of the client-side application (so those critical unique features can disappear).  As an end user, you get these compatibility issues like needing both IE8 and IE9 - and one of those problems can be trying to access the web when you need to have an older buggy/insecure browser (yes, you can have multiple browsers installed, but will all users of application X understand how to do this and remember to always use the right browser?)

Really, it's more of an overall application development issue than whether one architecture is better than another.  You can have an application with thick clients for a variety of platforms, or that only works in one environment.  You can have web-based apps that work on almost any browser, or ones tied to a particular browser/version.  With a "good" application, the browser approach is likely going to be better in many cases because you don't have to install something special.  But on a "bad" application that is tied to a particular OS or browser, it seems like we hit those compatibility issues that require workarounds like RDP a lot faster.

-- 
John "prefers a command-line interface anyhow" Torres-O'Callaghan
IS&T Storage and Backup Administrator
University of California, Berkeley
[hidden email]


On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 9:22 AM, Tom Holub <[hidden email]> wrote:
There's no reason why a browser solution can't provide good, quick UI.  Google Calender and Mail, for example, have UI-parity with desktop solutions--they're not identical, but it's hard to say that Thunderbird has an inherently better interface than Gmail.  

Specialized client applications are dead; we have a mobile workforce and client base which needs access from a variety of locations and devices.

On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 9:14 AM, Richard DESHONG <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Tom,
I would say that missing buttons is not what I would call a
"reliability" issue, but a functional issue.  I just find it odd that
the industry is so set on the use browser distribution for
applications where the vast majority of users are sitting at the same
desktop, every day, using the software.

Hi Alex,
I appreciate the testing you've done.  I'm very aware of the various
versions of browsers.  I am not concerned that they are designing for
IE, instead of FF, or any other acronym.  I was thinking (ranting)
more along the lines of the system of distribution - using a browser
vs a specialized client.

There are some functions that fit beautifully into the browser style
of access.  My rant was based on the observation that it has now
become the standard means of access - even when it doesn't make any
sense.  In most cases, a client would be better for the end user.  And
then provide specialized functions that might be needed via a browser.

CalTime is a good example.  You want to review pay periods - yours
and/or your subordinates?  Then you want a client to provide a quick
UI.  What if you are sick and want to record that? Or you just want to
record your hours for today?  This would be a great use of a browser
style access that allows you to log in, enter a date and the details
and logout.

On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 8:35 AM, Alexander Warren
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> Richard,
>
> While there is a lot of misinformation out there, I can tell you from
> experience that IE9 is pretty reliable.  It does have issues with the
> Hyperion plugin for BFS/BAIRS and the Dell punch out portal, but otherwise
> works pretty well with everything else I have seen on campus.  For those
> items I mentioned, I recommend Firefox.  It does work great with CalShare
> and gives a few features that you won't see with IE8 (that we don't use in
> our department...)
>
> Staying with IE8 isn't a good idea as it's not as secure as IE9.  If you
> want to use a good alternative, I would suggest Firefox over Chrome as FF
> is secure and still speedy.
>
> Alex Warren
> Facility Services IT
> University of California, Berkeley
> 2000 Carleton St., Room 240
> Berkeley, CA 94720
> Office: (510) 643-5523
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Richard
> DESHONG
> Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 8:27 AM
> To: Micronet List
> Subject: [Micronet] Apps with browser requirements
>
> <rant>
> The campus is rolling out a new app and, as seems typically annoying these
> days, it has a browser "requirement".  Here's the text:
>
> IMPORTANT: CalPlanning requires use of Internet Explorer 9 (IE9) for
> reliable performance.
>
> At least it has that "for reliable performance" part - meaning it will
> actually run on other browsers.  But how unreliable is it going to be?
>  And why is this acceptable?  And doesn't this sort of requirement put a
> big negative up against the advantage of browser-based distribution?
> </rant>
> --
> Richard DeShong, Systems Analyst, Athletic Study Center, U.C.Berkeley
> 164 Chavez Student Center, Berkeley, CA, 94720-4220
> 510-642-5123     asc.berkeley.edu
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> The following was automatically added to this message by the list server:
>
> To learn more about Micronet, including how to subscribe to or unsubscribe
> from its mailing list and how to find out about upcoming meetings, please
> visit the Micronet Web site:
>
> http://micronet.berkeley.edu
>
> Messages you send to this mailing list are public and world-viewable, and
> the list's archives can be browsed and searched on the Internet.  This
> means these messages can be viewed by (among others) your bosses,
> prospective employers, and people who have known you in the past.



--
Richard DeShong, Systems Analyst, Athletic Study Center, U.C.Berkeley
164 Chavez Student Center, Berkeley, CA, 94720-4220
510-642-5123     asc.berkeley.edu


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Re: [Micronet] Apps with browser requirements

Baril
In reply to this post by Karen Kato
And let us not forget about all the Apple Mac users that oft time get left out of the mix. We end up having to install Parallels and emulate Windows to get things running. But the whole "which browser to use" should be moot if the development of these apps do not rely on old, antiquated software modeling. Just saying.... can we be a bit more progressive? We are UC Berkeley, for crying out loud.....

End of rant,

Roy
On 2/13/2013 8:56 AM, Karen KATO wrote:
Hi All-

First let me acknowledge that managing the various browser/java versions required for the many critical applications to campus is a pain for both end user support and for those of us that are implementing these applications.

We are tackling this problem and will need to pull in folks to find the best solutions.  Let me know if you would like to volunteer to assist in determining our solution. 

Our objective is to have current versions of browsers/java running on clients on campus.  At the same time, we know that the application vendor's browser/java requirements will not always (mostly not) align to what we have installed on clients.  So, we have to figure out the least offensive solution for users that can be reasonably maintained by IT on campus. 

We are working on defining the preferred approach in next couple months and then we can start moving the applications to implement.  Let me know if you want to participate...

Thanks,
Karen
*********************
Karen Kato
Director of Enterprise Data
UC Berkeley - Information Services & Technology
2195 Hearst Ave, Berkeley, CA 94720
Desk:  510-643-3371, Cell:  510-303-6161, FAX:  510-643-5385



On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 8:34 AM, Tom Holub <[hidden email]> wrote:
A particularly annoying thing about CalPlanning is that most of its users also use BAIRS, which requires IE8.

We tried CalPlanning with IE8 and there were non-trivial issues (buttons missing).

As a mitigation, at least they've opened up RDC access; you can use RDC for either BAIRS or CalPlanning without having to jump through any hoops.  We're either going to set people up with RDC exclusively, or set up their IE for the application they use more often, and use RDC for the other one.

Another oddness: We're rolling out CalAnswers at the same time, another data warehouse facilitated by a Business Intelligence tool from Oracle.  But CalAnswers is using the latest OBIEE, which works cross-platform in Chrome as well as other browsers, while CalPlanning is using Hyperion, which is a product Oracle acquired and doesn't seem interested in.

On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 8:26 AM, Richard DESHONG <[hidden email]> wrote:
<rant>
The campus is rolling out a new app and, as seems typically annoying
these days, it has a browser "requirement".  Here's the text:

IMPORTANT: CalPlanning requires use of Internet Explorer 9 (IE9) for
reliable performance.

At least it has that "for reliable performance" part - meaning it will
actually run on other browsers.  But how unreliable is it going to be?
 And why is this acceptable?  And doesn't this sort of requirement put
a big negative up against the advantage of browser-based distribution?
</rant>
--
Richard DeShong, Systems Analyst, Athletic Study Center, U.C.Berkeley
164 Chavez Student Center, Berkeley, CA, 94720-4220
510-642-5123     asc.berkeley.edu


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Director of Computing, College of Letters & Science
101.D Durant Hall
<http://LSCR.berkeley.edu/>


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--

*********************
Karen Kato
Director of Enterprise Data
UC Berkeley - Information Services & Technology
2195 Hearst Ave, Berkeley, CA 94720
Desk:  510-643-3371, Cell:  510-303-6161, FAX:  510-643-5385


 
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-- 
Roy A. Baril
Director of Technology
Graduate School of Journalism
University of California
121 North Gate Hall
Berkeley, CA 94720
510-643-9215 -- Work
510-643-9136 -- Fax
925-352-9543 -- Cell

 
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Re: [Micronet] Apps with browser requirements

William
In reply to this post by Jeff Anderson-Lee
You basically already do write a "different" app for each different browser.  Yes, there's an attempt to standardize, but we can see that it's not going well.  The Android and iOS systems use the mobile browser and prefer to load up a mobile web page.  Those are different enough that they get redirected to a special mobile page.  Many normal web pages don't format or work well on the small screen.  Browsers have taken the UI several steps backwards with a lot of apps.  There just isn't enough expertise out there to do what google has done.
 
William
On 2/13/13 10:05 AM, Jeff Anderson-Lee wrote:
So you have to write an Android App, and and iOS app, and a Windows app, and ...?

That's even worse than writing to IE9 and FF18 and Safari6 and ...

You *may* need a different UI for hand-held/touch and full-screen/keyboard but development environments that only target specific versions of clients be it browsers or apps should *NOT* be allowed for developing mission critical apps in a BYOD world. Live with a simpler interface or at least provide one for doing the essential tasks. I *like* HTML5 for instance, but *requiring* it (or worse, a particular instantiation) for running an app in a company with tens of thousands of employees and distributed purchasing/IT support is asking for problems, at least for another 5 years or so.

If a web-based UI cannot run on at least a 3-year old browser, it should not be let out the door. (Not that anyone should be running a 3-year old browser anymore, for security reasons, but it should not depend on newer features.)

Jeff Anderson-Lee

On 2/13/2013 9:48 AM, William wrote:
"I suppose it is tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail." -- Abraham Maslow

The browser has become the hammer.  You can create specialized client applications to connect through the internet.  Thunderbird, Pidgin, Adium, SSH, VNC(through a tunnel), NX Client, X11, Remote Desktop,  etc. are all specialized clients that allow you to connect online.

I prefer specialized clients over a web browser interface, because keyboard shortcuts just don't work as well through some of the browser GUI layer.  They work well for the browser itself, but not the underlying app.  I suppose that if you use a Mac, you might already be used to some of the missing keyboard shortcuts or single mouse button and can adjust to an even more limited set on a browser. (Yes, you can add or set them on the Mac.  They're not on by default and the few people that do set them don't set them the same way.)

William
On 2/13/13 9:22 AM, Tom Holub wrote:
There's no reason why a browser solution can't provide good, quick UI.  Google Calender and Mail, for example, have UI-parity with desktop solutions--they're not identical, but it's hard to say that Thunderbird has an inherently better interface than Gmail.  

Specialized client applications are dead; we have a mobile workforce and client base which needs access from a variety of locations and devices.

On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 9:14 AM, Richard DESHONG <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Tom,
I would say that missing buttons is not what I would call a
"reliability" issue, but a functional issue.  I just find it odd that
the industry is so set on the use browser distribution for
applications where the vast majority of users are sitting at the same
desktop, every day, using the software.

Hi Alex,
I appreciate the testing you've done.  I'm very aware of the various
versions of browsers.  I am not concerned that they are designing for
IE, instead of FF, or any other acronym.  I was thinking (ranting)
more along the lines of the system of distribution - using a browser
vs a specialized client.

There are some functions that fit beautifully into the browser style
of access.  My rant was based on the observation that it has now
become the standard means of access - even when it doesn't make any
sense.  In most cases, a client would be better for the end user.  And
then provide specialized functions that might be needed via a browser.

CalTime is a good example.  You want to review pay periods - yours
and/or your subordinates?  Then you want a client to provide a quick
UI.  What if you are sick and want to record that? Or you just want to
record your hours for today?  This would be a great use of a browser
style access that allows you to log in, enter a date and the details
and logout.

On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 8:35 AM, Alexander Warren
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> Richard,
>
> While there is a lot of misinformation out there, I can tell you from
> experience that IE9 is pretty reliable.  It does have issues with the
> Hyperion plugin for BFS/BAIRS and the Dell punch out portal, but otherwise
> works pretty well with everything else I have seen on campus.  For those
> items I mentioned, I recommend Firefox.  It does work great with CalShare
> and gives a few features that you won't see with IE8 (that we don't use in
> our department...)
>
> Staying with IE8 isn't a good idea as it's not as secure as IE9.  If you
> want to use a good alternative, I would suggest Firefox over Chrome as FF
> is secure and still speedy.
>
> Alex Warren
> Facility Services IT
> University of California, Berkeley
> 2000 Carleton St., Room 240
> Berkeley, CA 94720
> Office: (510) 643-5523
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Richard
> DESHONG
> Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 8:27 AM
> To: Micronet List
> Subject: [Micronet] Apps with browser requirements
>
> <rant>
> The campus is rolling out a new app and, as seems typically annoying these
> days, it has a browser "requirement".  Here's the text:
>
> IMPORTANT: CalPlanning requires use of Internet Explorer 9 (IE9) for
> reliable performance.
>
> At least it has that "for reliable performance" part - meaning it will
> actually run on other browsers.  But how unreliable is it going to be?
>  And why is this acceptable?  And doesn't this sort of requirement put a
> big negative up against the advantage of browser-based distribution?
> </rant>
> --
> Richard DeShong, Systems Analyst, Athletic Study Center, U.C.Berkeley
> 164 Chavez Student Center, Berkeley, CA, 94720-4220
> 510-642-5123     asc.berkeley.edu
>
>
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> To learn more about Micronet, including how to subscribe to or unsubscribe
> from its mailing list and how to find out about upcoming meetings, please
> visit the Micronet Web site:
>
> http://micronet.berkeley.edu
>
> Messages you send to this mailing list are public and world-viewable, and
> the list's archives can be browsed and searched on the Internet.  This
> means these messages can be viewed by (among others) your bosses,
> prospective employers, and people who have known you in the past.



--
Richard DeShong, Systems Analyst, Athletic Study Center, U.C.Berkeley
164 Chavez Student Center, Berkeley, CA, 94720-4220
510-642-5123     asc.berkeley.edu


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Director of Computing, College of Letters & Science
101.D Durant Hall
<http://LSCR.berkeley.edu/>


 
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Re: [Micronet] Apps with browser requirements

tedcrum
In reply to this post by Jeff Anderson-Lee
I think that developers need to use the latest features for reasons
of professional development. You need to have used HTML5 at your last
job to get a better job.

-tc

At 10:05 AM 2/13/2013, Jeff Anderson-Lee wrote:

>So you have to write an Android App, and and iOS app, and a Windows
>app, and ...?
>
>That's even worse than writing to IE9 and FF18 and Safari6 and ...
>
>You *may* need a different UI for hand-held/touch and
>full-screen/keyboard but development environments that only target
>specific versions of clients be it browsers or apps should *NOT* be
>allowed for developing mission critical apps in a BYOD world. Live
>with a simpler interface or at least provide one for doing the
>essential tasks. I *like* HTML5 for instance, but *requiring* it (or
>worse, a particular instantiation) for running an app in a company
>with tens of thousands of employees and distributed purchasing/IT
>support is asking for problems, at least for another 5 years or so.
>
>If a web-based UI cannot run on at least a 3-year old browser, it
>should not be let out the door. (Not that anyone should be running a
>3-year old browser anymore, for security reasons, but it should not
>depend on newer features.)
>
>Jeff Anderson-Lee



 
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