[Micronet] IE 9

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
25 messages Options
12
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

[Micronet] IE 9

Jon Johnsen
Has anyone found that Internet Explorer 9 doesn't play nicely with any
campus applications?

--
Jon Johnsen
Information Systems Office
433 University Hall
School of Public Health, UC Berkeley
510 643-4357


 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The following was automatically added to this message by the list server:

To learn more about Micronet, including how to subscribe to or unsubscribe from its mailing list and how to find out about upcoming meetings, please visit the Micronet Web site:

http://micronet.berkeley.edu

Messages you send to this mailing list are public and world-viewable, and the list's archives can be browsed and searched on the Internet.  This means these messages can be viewed by (among others) your bosses, prospective employers, and people who have known you in the past.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Micronet] IE 9

Johnathon P. Kogelman
At this stage I'd be thrilled if they supported something high than Firefox 3.5.x.

On Jun 23, 2011, at 8:23 AM, Jon Johnsen <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Has anyone found that Internet Explorer 9 doesn't play nicely with any
> campus applications?
>
> --
> Jon Johnsen
> Information Systems Office
> 433 University Hall
> School of Public Health, UC Berkeley
> 510 643-4357
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> The following was automatically added to this message by the list server:
>
> To learn more about Micronet, including how to subscribe to or unsubscribe from its mailing list and how to find out about upcoming meetings, please visit the Micronet Web site:
>
> http://micronet.berkeley.edu
>
> Messages you send to this mailing list are public and world-viewable, and the list's archives can be browsed and searched on the Internet.  This means these messages can be viewed by (among others) your bosses, prospective employers, and people who have known you in the past.

 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The following was automatically added to this message by the list server:

To learn more about Micronet, including how to subscribe to or unsubscribe from its mailing list and how to find out about upcoming meetings, please visit the Micronet Web site:

http://micronet.berkeley.edu

Messages you send to this mailing list are public and world-viewable, and the list's archives can be browsed and searched on the Internet.  This means these messages can be viewed by (among others) your bosses, prospective employers, and people who have known you in the past.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Micronet] IE 9

Beth Muramoto
Amen to that. Trying telling people why they have to use/keep the older version of Firefox only for BFS and BAIRS when they update to Firefox 5 to use other web elements on other pages then try using BFS and BAIRS on it and they don't work. *sigh.

Beth


On Jun 23, 2011, at 9:29 AM, Johnathon P. Kogelman wrote:

> At this stage I'd be thrilled if they supported something high than Firefox 3.5.x.
>
> On Jun 23, 2011, at 8:23 AM, Jon Johnsen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Has anyone found that Internet Explorer 9 doesn't play nicely with any
>> campus applications?
>>
>> --
>> Jon Johnsen
>> Information Systems Office
>> 433 University Hall
>> School of Public Health, UC Berkeley
>> 510 643-4357
>>
>>
>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> The following was automatically added to this message by the list server:
>>
>> To learn more about Micronet, including how to subscribe to or unsubscribe from its mailing list and how to find out about upcoming meetings, please visit the Micronet Web site:
>>
>> http://micronet.berkeley.edu
>>
>> Messages you send to this mailing list are public and world-viewable, and the list's archives can be browsed and searched on the Internet.  This means these messages can be viewed by (among others) your bosses, prospective employers, and people who have known you in the past.
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> The following was automatically added to this message by the list server:
>
> To learn more about Micronet, including how to subscribe to or unsubscribe from its mailing list and how to find out about upcoming meetings, please visit the Micronet Web site:
>
> http://micronet.berkeley.edu
>
> Messages you send to this mailing list are public and world-viewable, and the list's archives can be browsed and searched on the Internet.  This means these messages can be viewed by (among others) your bosses, prospective employers, and people who have known you in the past.

***********************************************
Beth Muramoto
Computer Resource Specialist
Graduate School of Education
University of California, Berkeley
1650 Tolman Hall
Berkeley, CA 94720
Email:  mailto:[hidden email]
Phone:  (510) 643-0203
Fax:  (510) 643-6239

The Formula for Success:  Underpromise, overdeliver.
                                - Tom Peters

You have to decide what your highest priorities are and have the courage to say 'no' to other things."

                                -Stephen Covey

I'm a great believer in luck and I find the harder I work, the more I have of it.

                                -Thomas Jefferson

***********************************************




 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The following was automatically added to this message by the list server:

To learn more about Micronet, including how to subscribe to or unsubscribe from its mailing list and how to find out about upcoming meetings, please visit the Micronet Web site:

http://micronet.berkeley.edu

Messages you send to this mailing list are public and world-viewable, and the list's archives can be browsed and searched on the Internet.  This means these messages can be viewed by (among others) your bosses, prospective employers, and people who have known you in the past.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Micronet] IE 9

Guy D. VINSON
Which sort of shoots security right in the pants when you have to maintain out of date browsers in order to support campus applications.
---
Guy Vinson
Infrastructure & IT
College of Environmental Design
510-842-7199



On Thu, Jun 23, 2011 at 10:33 AM, Beth Muramoto <[hidden email]> wrote:
Amen to that. Trying telling people why they have to use/keep the older version of Firefox only for BFS and BAIRS when they update to Firefox 5 to use other web elements on other pages then try using BFS and BAIRS on it and they don't work. *sigh.

Beth


On Jun 23, 2011, at 9:29 AM, Johnathon P. Kogelman wrote:

> At this stage I'd be thrilled if they supported something high than Firefox 3.5.x.
>
> On Jun 23, 2011, at 8:23 AM, Jon Johnsen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Has anyone found that Internet Explorer 9 doesn't play nicely with any
>> campus applications?
>>
>> --
>> Jon Johnsen
>> Information Systems Office
>> 433 University Hall
>> School of Public Health, UC Berkeley
>> <a href="tel:510%20643-4357" value="+15106434357">510 643-4357
>>
>>
>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> The following was automatically added to this message by the list server:
>>
>> To learn more about Micronet, including how to subscribe to or unsubscribe from its mailing list and how to find out about upcoming meetings, please visit the Micronet Web site:
>>
>> http://micronet.berkeley.edu
>>
>> Messages you send to this mailing list are public and world-viewable, and the list's archives can be browsed and searched on the Internet.  This means these messages can be viewed by (among others) your bosses, prospective employers, and people who have known you in the past.
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> The following was automatically added to this message by the list server:
>
> To learn more about Micronet, including how to subscribe to or unsubscribe from its mailing list and how to find out about upcoming meetings, please visit the Micronet Web site:
>
> http://micronet.berkeley.edu
>
> Messages you send to this mailing list are public and world-viewable, and the list's archives can be browsed and searched on the Internet.  This means these messages can be viewed by (among others) your bosses, prospective employers, and people who have known you in the past.

***********************************************
Beth Muramoto
Computer Resource Specialist
Graduate School of Education
University of California, Berkeley
1650 Tolman Hall
Berkeley, CA 94720
Email:  mailto:[hidden email]
Phone:  <a href="tel:%28510%29%20643-0203" value="+15106430203">(510) 643-0203
Fax:  <a href="tel:%28510%29%20643-6239" value="+15106436239">(510) 643-6239

The Formula for Success:  Underpromise, overdeliver.
                               - Tom Peters

You have to decide what your highest priorities are and have the courage to say 'no' to other things."

                               -Stephen Covey

I'm a great believer in luck and I find the harder I work, the more I have of it.

                               -Thomas Jefferson

***********************************************





-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The following was automatically added to this message by the list server:

To learn more about Micronet, including how to subscribe to or unsubscribe from its mailing list and how to find out about upcoming meetings, please visit the Micronet Web site:

http://micronet.berkeley.edu

Messages you send to this mailing list are public and world-viewable, and the list's archives can be browsed and searched on the Internet.  This means these messages can be viewed by (among others) your bosses, prospective employers, and people who have known you in the past.


 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The following was automatically added to this message by the list server:

To learn more about Micronet, including how to subscribe to or unsubscribe from its mailing list and how to find out about upcoming meetings, please visit the Micronet Web site:

http://micronet.berkeley.edu

Messages you send to this mailing list are public and world-viewable, and the list's archives can be browsed and searched on the Internet.  This means these messages can be viewed by (among others) your bosses, prospective employers, and people who have known you in the past.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Micronet] IE 9

Greg Merritt
Well-trained users often upgrade to the latest, secure version of Firefox and lock them out of campus systems, and it requires ever-more digging to come up with download links for those old versions.

Could those old versions of Firefox for each OS be placed on software.berkeley.edu?  We all need them, and it would be very convenient to get them from this central location.

-Greg


On Jun 23, 2011, at 10:44 AM, guy vinson wrote:

> Which sort of shoots security right in the pants when you have to maintain out of date browsers in order to support campus applications.
> ---
> Guy Vinson
> Infrastructure & IT
> College of Environmental Design
> 510-842-7199
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 23, 2011 at 10:33 AM, Beth Muramoto <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Amen to that. Trying telling people why they have to use/keep the older version of Firefox only for BFS and BAIRS when they update to Firefox 5 to use other web elements on other pages then try using BFS and BAIRS on it and they don't work. *sigh.
>
> Beth
>
>
> On Jun 23, 2011, at 9:29 AM, Johnathon P. Kogelman wrote:
>
> > At this stage I'd be thrilled if they supported something high than Firefox 3.5.x.
> >
> > On Jun 23, 2011, at 8:23 AM, Jon Johnsen <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >> Has anyone found that Internet Explorer 9 doesn't play nicely with any
> >> campus applications?
> >>
> >> --
> >> Jon Johnsen
> >> Information Systems Office
> >> 433 University Hall
> >> School of Public Health, UC Berkeley
> >> 510 643-4357
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> The following was automatically added to this message by the list server:
> >>
> >> To learn more about Micronet, including how to subscribe to or unsubscribe from its mailing list and how to find out about upcoming meetings, please visit the Micronet Web site:
> >>
> >> http://micronet.berkeley.edu
> >>
> >> Messages you send to this mailing list are public and world-viewable, and the list's archives can be browsed and searched on the Internet.  This means these messages can be viewed by (among others) your bosses, prospective employers, and people who have known you in the past.
> >
> >
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > The following was automatically added to this message by the list server:
> >
> > To learn more about Micronet, including how to subscribe to or unsubscribe from its mailing list and how to find out about upcoming meetings, please visit the Micronet Web site:
> >
> > http://micronet.berkeley.edu
> >
> > Messages you send to this mailing list are public and world-viewable, and the list's archives can be browsed and searched on the Internet.  This means these messages can be viewed by (among others) your bosses, prospective employers, and people who have known you in the past.
>
> ***********************************************
> Beth Muramoto
> Computer Resource Specialist
> Graduate School of Education
> University of California, Berkeley
> 1650 Tolman Hall
> Berkeley, CA 94720
> Email:  mailto:[hidden email]
> Phone:  (510) 643-0203
> Fax:  (510) 643-6239
>
> The Formula for Success:  Underpromise, overdeliver.
>                                - Tom Peters
>
> You have to decide what your highest priorities are and have the courage to say 'no' to other things."
>
>                                -Stephen Covey
>
> I'm a great believer in luck and I find the harder I work, the more I have of it.
>
>                                -Thomas Jefferson
>
> ***********************************************
>
>
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> The following was automatically added to this message by the list server:
>
> To learn more about Micronet, including how to subscribe to or unsubscribe from its mailing list and how to find out about upcoming meetings, please visit the Micronet Web site:
>
> http://micronet.berkeley.edu
>
> Messages you send to this mailing list are public and world-viewable, and the list's archives can be browsed and searched on the Internet.  This means these messages can be viewed by (among others) your bosses, prospective employers, and people who have known you in the past.
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> The following was automatically added to this message by the list server:
>
> To learn more about Micronet, including how to subscribe to or unsubscribe from its mailing list and how to find out about upcoming meetings, please visit the Micronet Web site:
>
> http://micronet.berkeley.edu
>
> Messages you send to this mailing list are public and world-viewable, and the list's archives can be browsed and searched on the Internet.  This means these messages can be viewed by (among others) your bosses, prospective employers, and people who have known you in the past.


 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The following was automatically added to this message by the list server:

To learn more about Micronet, including how to subscribe to or unsubscribe from its mailing list and how to find out about upcoming meetings, please visit the Micronet Web site:

http://micronet.berkeley.edu

Messages you send to this mailing list are public and world-viewable, and the list's archives can be browsed and searched on the Internet.  This means these messages can be viewed by (among others) your bosses, prospective employers, and people who have known you in the past.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Micronet] IE 9

Beth Muramoto
I agree with both Guy's and Greg's points. Maintaining security is tough enough already. I've kept the .dmg for the old version of Firefox on a flash drive because I've had to "reinstall" it a few times.

Beth


On Jun 23, 2011, at 10:48 AM, Greg Merritt wrote:

> Well-trained users often upgrade to the latest, secure version of Firefox and lock them out of campus systems, and it requires ever-more digging to come up with download links for those old versions.
>
> Could those old versions of Firefox for each OS be placed on software.berkeley.edu?  We all need them, and it would be very convenient to get them from this central location.
>
> -Greg
>
>
> On Jun 23, 2011, at 10:44 AM, guy vinson wrote:
>
>> Which sort of shoots security right in the pants when you have to maintain out of date browsers in order to support campus applications.
>> ---
>> Guy Vinson
>> Infrastructure & IT
>> College of Environmental Design
>> 510-842-7199
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jun 23, 2011 at 10:33 AM, Beth Muramoto <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Amen to that. Trying telling people why they have to use/keep the older version of Firefox only for BFS and BAIRS when they update to Firefox 5 to use other web elements on other pages then try using BFS and BAIRS on it and they don't work. *sigh.
>>
>> Beth
>>
>>
>> On Jun 23, 2011, at 9:29 AM, Johnathon P. Kogelman wrote:
>>
>>> At this stage I'd be thrilled if they supported something high than Firefox 3.5.x.
>>>
>>> On Jun 23, 2011, at 8:23 AM, Jon Johnsen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Has anyone found that Internet Explorer 9 doesn't play nicely with any
>>>> campus applications?
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Jon Johnsen
>>>> Information Systems Office
>>>> 433 University Hall
>>>> School of Public Health, UC Berkeley
>>>> 510 643-4357
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> The following was automatically added to this message by the list server:
>>>>
>>>> To learn more about Micronet, including how to subscribe to or unsubscribe from its mailing list and how to find out about upcoming meetings, please visit the Micronet Web site:
>>>>
>>>> http://micronet.berkeley.edu
>>>>
>>>> Messages you send to this mailing list are public and world-viewable, and the list's archives can be browsed and searched on the Internet.  This means these messages can be viewed by (among others) your bosses, prospective employers, and people who have known you in the past.
>>>
>>>
>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> The following was automatically added to this message by the list server:
>>>
>>> To learn more about Micronet, including how to subscribe to or unsubscribe from its mailing list and how to find out about upcoming meetings, please visit the Micronet Web site:
>>>
>>> http://micronet.berkeley.edu
>>>
>>> Messages you send to this mailing list are public and world-viewable, and the list's archives can be browsed and searched on the Internet.  This means these messages can be viewed by (among others) your bosses, prospective employers, and people who have known you in the past.
>>
>> ***********************************************
>> Beth Muramoto
>> Computer Resource Specialist
>> Graduate School of Education
>> University of California, Berkeley
>> 1650 Tolman Hall
>> Berkeley, CA 94720
>> Email:  mailto:[hidden email]
>> Phone:  (510) 643-0203
>> Fax:  (510) 643-6239
>>
>> The Formula for Success:  Underpromise, overdeliver.
>>                               - Tom Peters
>>
>> You have to decide what your highest priorities are and have the courage to say 'no' to other things."
>>
>>                               -Stephen Covey
>>
>> I'm a great believer in luck and I find the harder I work, the more I have of it.
>>
>>                               -Thomas Jefferson
>>
>> ***********************************************
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> The following was automatically added to this message by the list server:
>>
>> To learn more about Micronet, including how to subscribe to or unsubscribe from its mailing list and how to find out about upcoming meetings, please visit the Micronet Web site:
>>
>> http://micronet.berkeley.edu
>>
>> Messages you send to this mailing list are public and world-viewable, and the list's archives can be browsed and searched on the Internet.  This means these messages can be viewed by (among others) your bosses, prospective employers, and people who have known you in the past.
>>
>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> The following was automatically added to this message by the list server:
>>
>> To learn more about Micronet, including how to subscribe to or unsubscribe from its mailing list and how to find out about upcoming meetings, please visit the Micronet Web site:
>>
>> http://micronet.berkeley.edu
>>
>> Messages you send to this mailing list are public and world-viewable, and the list's archives can be browsed and searched on the Internet.  This means these messages can be viewed by (among others) your bosses, prospective employers, and people who have known you in the past.
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> The following was automatically added to this message by the list server:
>
> To learn more about Micronet, including how to subscribe to or unsubscribe from its mailing list and how to find out about upcoming meetings, please visit the Micronet Web site:
>
> http://micronet.berkeley.edu
>
> Messages you send to this mailing list are public and world-viewable, and the list's archives can be browsed and searched on the Internet.  This means these messages can be viewed by (among others) your bosses, prospective employers, and people who have known you in the past.

***********************************************
Beth Muramoto
Computer Resource Specialist
Graduate School of Education
University of California, Berkeley
1650 Tolman Hall
Berkeley, CA 94720
Email:  mailto:[hidden email]
Phone:  (510) 643-0203
Fax:  (510) 643-6239

The Formula for Success:  Underpromise, overdeliver.
                                - Tom Peters

You have to decide what your highest priorities are and have the courage to say 'no' to other things."

                                -Stephen Covey

I'm a great believer in luck and I find the harder I work, the more I have of it.

                                -Thomas Jefferson

***********************************************




 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The following was automatically added to this message by the list server:

To learn more about Micronet, including how to subscribe to or unsubscribe from its mailing list and how to find out about upcoming meetings, please visit the Micronet Web site:

http://micronet.berkeley.edu

Messages you send to this mailing list are public and world-viewable, and the list's archives can be browsed and searched on the Internet.  This means these messages can be viewed by (among others) your bosses, prospective employers, and people who have known you in the past.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Micronet] IE 9

Scot Hacker
In reply to this post by Greg Merritt

On Jun 23, 2011, at 10:48 AM, Greg Merritt wrote:

Could those old versions of Firefox for each OS be placed on software.berkeley.edu?  We all need them, and it would be very convenient to get them from this central location.

Not too put too fine a point on it, but we should *not* be developing workarounds and special software libraries and sticking users with old (possibly insecure) browsers because certain developers are building apps so standards non-compliant that they aren't even forwards compatible. The typical web developer's struggle is to make their sites work in *older* browsers, not the other way around. Can you think of another site anywhere on the net that breaks when you UPgrade your browser? I can't.

It is absurd that anyone on this campus is developing web-based applications that break this badly when new browsers come out. The problem here is *really* bad web development practices. It needs to be addressed at its source, not with the end users and sysadmins  scrambling around for band-aids and workarounds. We try to ensure that everyone in our department is using the absolute latest browser at all times, and we let them choose between FF, Safari and Chrome. These modern browsers work with *everything on the net* - how can some of UC Berkeley's critical systems be the lone exception? This problem makes our jobs harder than they need to be.

Sorry, just had to get that out of my system.

./s


 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The following was automatically added to this message by the list server:

To learn more about Micronet, including how to subscribe to or unsubscribe from its mailing list and how to find out about upcoming meetings, please visit the Micronet Web site:

http://micronet.berkeley.edu

Messages you send to this mailing list are public and world-viewable, and the list's archives can be browsed and searched on the Internet.  This means these messages can be viewed by (among others) your bosses, prospective employers, and people who have known you in the past.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Micronet] IE 9

Jingmon Leong
In reply to this post by Greg Merritt
It would also help to have them mention on software.berkeley.edu or even
the BFS/BAIRS websites that the Hyperion client does not support 64-bit
browsers. It would be great to have a solution which isn't reliant on
what browser or what version(s) of that browser we use.

And it's funny this topic came up because I just had one of my users ask
me about this exact issue this morning.

-Jingmon

Jingmon Leong
Information Services, College of Chemistry
Desktop Support: (510) 642-4838
B36A Hildebrand Hall
[hidden email]


Greg Merritt wrote, On 6/23/2011 10:48 AM:

> Well-trained users often upgrade to the latest, secure version of Firefox and lock them out of campus systems, and it requires ever-more digging to come up with download links for those old versions.
>
> Could those old versions of Firefox for each OS be placed on software.berkeley.edu?  We all need them, and it would be very convenient to get them from this central location.
>
> -Greg
>
>
> On Jun 23, 2011, at 10:44 AM, guy vinson wrote:
>
>> Which sort of shoots security right in the pants when you have to maintain out of date browsers in order to support campus applications.
>> ---
>> Guy Vinson
>> Infrastructure&  IT
>> College of Environmental Design
>> 510-842-7199
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jun 23, 2011 at 10:33 AM, Beth Muramoto<[hidden email]>  wrote:
>> Amen to that. Trying telling people why they have to use/keep the older version of Firefox only for BFS and BAIRS when they update to Firefox 5 to use other web elements on other pages then try using BFS and BAIRS on it and they don't work. *sigh.
>>
>> Beth
>>
>>
>> On Jun 23, 2011, at 9:29 AM, Johnathon P. Kogelman wrote:
>>
>>> At this stage I'd be thrilled if they supported something high than Firefox 3.5.x.
>>>
>>> On Jun 23, 2011, at 8:23 AM, Jon Johnsen<[hidden email]>  wrote:
>>>
>>>> Has anyone found that Internet Explorer 9 doesn't play nicely with any
>>>> campus applications?
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Jon Johnsen
>>>> Information Systems Office
>>>> 433 University Hall
>>>> School of Public Health, UC Berkeley
>>>> 510 643-4357
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> The following was automatically added to this message by the list server:
>>>>
>>>> To learn more about Micronet, including how to subscribe to or unsubscribe from its mailing list and how to find out about upcoming meetings, please visit the Micronet Web site:
>>>>
>>>> http://micronet.berkeley.edu
>>>>
>>>> Messages you send to this mailing list are public and world-viewable, and the list's archives can be browsed and searched on the Internet.  This means these messages can be viewed by (among others) your bosses, prospective employers, and people who have known you in the past.
>>>
>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> The following was automatically added to this message by the list server:
>>>
>>> To learn more about Micronet, including how to subscribe to or unsubscribe from its mailing list and how to find out about upcoming meetings, please visit the Micronet Web site:
>>>
>>> http://micronet.berkeley.edu
>>>
>>> Messages you send to this mailing list are public and world-viewable, and the list's archives can be browsed and searched on the Internet.  This means these messages can be viewed by (among others) your bosses, prospective employers, and people who have known you in the past.
>> ***********************************************
>> Beth Muramoto
>> Computer Resource Specialist
>> Graduate School of Education
>> University of California, Berkeley
>> 1650 Tolman Hall
>> Berkeley, CA 94720
>> Email:  mailto:[hidden email]
>> Phone:  (510) 643-0203
>> Fax:  (510) 643-6239
>>
>> The Formula for Success:  Underpromise, overdeliver.
>>                                 - Tom Peters
>>
>> You have to decide what your highest priorities are and have the courage to say 'no' to other things."
>>
>>                                 -Stephen Covey
>>
>> I'm a great believer in luck and I find the harder I work, the more I have of it.
>>
>>                                 -Thomas Jefferson
>>
>> ***********************************************
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> The following was automatically added to this message by the list server:
>>
>> To learn more about Micronet, including how to subscribe to or unsubscribe from its mailing list and how to find out about upcoming meetings, please visit the Micronet Web site:
>>
>> http://micronet.berkeley.edu
>>
>> Messages you send to this mailing list are public and world-viewable, and the list's archives can be browsed and searched on the Internet.  This means these messages can be viewed by (among others) your bosses, prospective employers, and people who have known you in the past.
>>
>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> The following was automatically added to this message by the list server:
>>
>> To learn more about Micronet, including how to subscribe to or unsubscribe from its mailing list and how to find out about upcoming meetings, please visit the Micronet Web site:
>>
>> http://micronet.berkeley.edu
>>
>> Messages you send to this mailing list are public and world-viewable, and the list's archives can be browsed and searched on the Internet.  This means these messages can be viewed by (among others) your bosses, prospective employers, and people who have known you in the past.
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> The following was automatically added to this message by the list server:
>
> To learn more about Micronet, including how to subscribe to or unsubscribe from its mailing list and how to find out about upcoming meetings, please visit the Micronet Web site:
>
> http://micronet.berkeley.edu
>
> Messages you send to this mailing list are public and world-viewable, and the list's archives can be browsed and searched on the Internet.  This means these messages can be viewed by (among others) your bosses, prospective employers, and people who have known you in the past.

 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The following was automatically added to this message by the list server:

To learn more about Micronet, including how to subscribe to or unsubscribe from its mailing list and how to find out about upcoming meetings, please visit the Micronet Web site:

http://micronet.berkeley.edu

Messages you send to this mailing list are public and world-viewable, and the list's archives can be browsed and searched on the Internet.  This means these messages can be viewed by (among others) your bosses, prospective employers, and people who have known you in the past.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Micronet] IE 9

Beth Muramoto
In reply to this post by Scot Hacker
Well said and I'm with you all the way. 

Beth


On Jun 23, 2011, at 11:07 AM, Scot Hacker wrote:


On Jun 23, 2011, at 10:48 AM, Greg Merritt wrote:

Could those old versions of Firefox for each OS be placed on software.berkeley.edu?  We all need them, and it would be very convenient to get them from this central location.

Not too put too fine a point on it, but we should *not* be developing workarounds and special software libraries and sticking users with old (possibly insecure) browsers because certain developers are building apps so standards non-compliant that they aren't even forwards compatible. The typical web developer's struggle is to make their sites work in *older* browsers, not the other way around. Can you think of another site anywhere on the net that breaks when you UPgrade your browser? I can't.

It is absurd that anyone on this campus is developing web-based applications that break this badly when new browsers come out. The problem here is *really* bad web development practices. It needs to be addressed at its source, not with the end users and sysadmins  scrambling around for band-aids and workarounds. We try to ensure that everyone in our department is using the absolute latest browser at all times, and we let them choose between FF, Safari and Chrome. These modern browsers work with *everything on the net* - how can some of UC Berkeley's critical systems be the lone exception? This problem makes our jobs harder than they need to be.

Sorry, just had to get that out of my system.

./s


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The following was automatically added to this message by the list server:

To learn more about Micronet, including how to subscribe to or unsubscribe from its mailing list and how to find out about upcoming meetings, please visit the Micronet Web site:

http://micronet.berkeley.edu

Messages you send to this mailing list are public and world-viewable, and the list's archives can be browsed and searched on the Internet.  This means these messages can be viewed by (among others) your bosses, prospective employers, and people who have known you in the past.

***********************************************
Beth Muramoto
Computer Resource Specialist
Graduate School of Education
University of California, Berkeley
1650 Tolman Hall
Berkeley, CA 94720
Email:  [hidden email]
Phone:  (510) 643-0203 
Fax:  (510) 643-6239

The Formula for Success:  Underpromise, overdeliver.
- Tom Peters

You have to decide what your highest priorities are and have the courage to say 'no' to other things." 

-Stephen Covey

I'm a great believer in luck and I find the harder I work, the more I have of it. 

-Thomas Jefferson

***********************************************




 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The following was automatically added to this message by the list server:

To learn more about Micronet, including how to subscribe to or unsubscribe from its mailing list and how to find out about upcoming meetings, please visit the Micronet Web site:

http://micronet.berkeley.edu

Messages you send to this mailing list are public and world-viewable, and the list's archives can be browsed and searched on the Internet.  This means these messages can be viewed by (among others) your bosses, prospective employers, and people who have known you in the past.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Micronet] IE 9

Greg Merritt
In reply to this post by Scot Hacker
While I agree with your sentiments, Scot, it would be even more absurd to *pretend* that we don't require these old browsers to do business here on campus when we actually do need them. ;)

-Greg


On Jun 23, 2011, at 11:07 AM, Scot Hacker wrote:

>
> On Jun 23, 2011, at 10:48 AM, Greg Merritt wrote:
>
>> Could those old versions of Firefox for each OS be placed on software.berkeley.edu?  We all need them, and it would be very convenient to get them from this central location.
>
> Not too put too fine a point on it, but we should *not* be developing workarounds and special software libraries and sticking users with old (possibly insecure) browsers because certain developers are building apps so standards non-compliant that they aren't even forwards compatible. The typical web developer's struggle is to make their sites work in *older* browsers, not the other way around. Can you think of another site anywhere on the net that breaks when you UPgrade your browser? I can't.
>
> It is absurd that anyone on this campus is developing web-based applications that break this badly when new browsers come out. The problem here is *really* bad web development practices. It needs to be addressed at its source, not with the end users and sysadmins  scrambling around for band-aids and workarounds. We try to ensure that everyone in our department is using the absolute latest browser at all times, and we let them choose between FF, Safari and Chrome. These modern browsers work with *everything on the net* - how can some of UC Berkeley's critical systems be the lone exception? This problem makes our jobs harder than they need to be.
>
> Sorry, just had to get that out of my system.
>
> ./s
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> The following was automatically added to this message by the list server:
>
> To learn more about Micronet, including how to subscribe to or unsubscribe from its mailing list and how to find out about upcoming meetings, please visit the Micronet Web site:
>
> http://micronet.berkeley.edu
>
> Messages you send to this mailing list are public and world-viewable, and the list's archives can be browsed and searched on the Internet.  This means these messages can be viewed by (among others) your bosses, prospective employers, and people who have known you in the past.


 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The following was automatically added to this message by the list server:

To learn more about Micronet, including how to subscribe to or unsubscribe from its mailing list and how to find out about upcoming meetings, please visit the Micronet Web site:

http://micronet.berkeley.edu

Messages you send to this mailing list are public and world-viewable, and the list's archives can be browsed and searched on the Internet.  This means these messages can be viewed by (among others) your bosses, prospective employers, and people who have known you in the past.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Micronet] IE 9

Saima Fazli
You put it out quite nicely Scot and its been very frustrating working with these idiosyncrasies. 

sf

On 6/23/2011 11:15 AM, Greg Merritt wrote:
While I agree with your sentiments, Scot, it would be even more absurd to *pretend* that we don't require these old browsers to do business here on campus when we actually do need them. ;)

-Greg


On Jun 23, 2011, at 11:07 AM, Scot Hacker wrote:

  
On Jun 23, 2011, at 10:48 AM, Greg Merritt wrote:

    
Could those old versions of Firefox for each OS be placed on software.berkeley.edu?  We all need them, and it would be very convenient to get them from this central location.
      
Not too put too fine a point on it, but we should *not* be developing workarounds and special software libraries and sticking users with old (possibly insecure) browsers because certain developers are building apps so standards non-compliant that they aren't even forwards compatible. The typical web developer's struggle is to make their sites work in *older* browsers, not the other way around. Can you think of another site anywhere on the net that breaks when you UPgrade your browser? I can't.

It is absurd that anyone on this campus is developing web-based applications that break this badly when new browsers come out. The problem here is *really* bad web development practices. It needs to be addressed at its source, not with the end users and sysadmins  scrambling around for band-aids and workarounds. We try to ensure that everyone in our department is using the absolute latest browser at all times, and we let them choose between FF, Safari and Chrome. These modern browsers work with *everything on the net* - how can some of UC Berkeley's critical systems be the lone exception? This problem makes our jobs harder than they need to be.

Sorry, just had to get that out of my system.

./s


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The following was automatically added to this message by the list server:

To learn more about Micronet, including how to subscribe to or unsubscribe from its mailing list and how to find out about upcoming meetings, please visit the Micronet Web site:

http://micronet.berkeley.edu

Messages you send to this mailing list are public and world-viewable, and the list's archives can be browsed and searched on the Internet.  This means these messages can be viewed by (among others) your bosses, prospective employers, and people who have known you in the past.
    

 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The following was automatically added to this message by the list server:

To learn more about Micronet, including how to subscribe to or unsubscribe from its mailing list and how to find out about upcoming meetings, please visit the Micronet Web site:

http://micronet.berkeley.edu

Messages you send to this mailing list are public and world-viewable, and the list's archives can be browsed and searched on the Internet.  This means these messages can be viewed by (among others) your bosses, prospective employers, and people who have known you in the past.
  

 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The following was automatically added to this message by the list server:

To learn more about Micronet, including how to subscribe to or unsubscribe from its mailing list and how to find out about upcoming meetings, please visit the Micronet Web site:

http://micronet.berkeley.edu

Messages you send to this mailing list are public and world-viewable, and the list's archives can be browsed and searched on the Internet.  This means these messages can be viewed by (among others) your bosses, prospective employers, and people who have known you in the past.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Micronet] IE 9

Bill Clark
In reply to this post by Scot Hacker
Hear, hear!

In the meantime though, so that people can get their work done on the
(unfortunately quite necessary) non-compliant systems, would it be
feasible to use a local VM instead?  It could be set up with the
appropriately outdated browser necessary for a particular app, and then
locked down to prevent accidental upgrading.  Then users (and support
staff) could feel free to upgrade their "real" desktop software to the
latest and greatest versions, and also feel (slightly) more secure with
the added layer of protection afforded by the VM.

-Bill Clark

>
> On Jun 23, 2011, at 10:48 AM, Greg Merritt wrote:
>
>> Could those old versions of Firefox for each OS be placed on
>> software.berkeley.edu?  We all need them, and it would be very
>> convenient to get them from this central location.
>
> Not too put too fine a point on it, but we should *not* be developing
> workarounds and special software libraries and sticking users with old
> (possibly insecure) browsers because certain developers are building apps
> so standards non-compliant that they aren't even forwards compatible. The
> typical web developer's struggle is to make their sites work in *older*
> browsers, not the other way around. Can you think of another site anywhere
> on the net that breaks when you UPgrade your browser? I can't.
>
> It is absurd that anyone on this campus is developing web-based
> applications that break this badly when new browsers come out. The problem
> here is *really* bad web development practices. It needs to be addressed
> at its source, not with the end users and sysadmins  scrambling around for
> band-aids and workarounds. We try to ensure that everyone in our
> department is using the absolute latest browser at all times, and we let
> them choose between FF, Safari and Chrome. These modern browsers work with
> *everything on the net* - how can some of UC Berkeley's critical systems
> be the lone exception? This problem makes our jobs harder than they need
> to be.
>
> Sorry, just had to get that out of my system.
>
> ./s
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> The following was automatically added to this message by the list server:
>
> To learn more about Micronet, including how to subscribe to or unsubscribe
> from its mailing list and how to find out about upcoming meetings, please
> visit the Micronet Web site:
>
> http://micronet.berkeley.edu
>
> Messages you send to this mailing list are public and world-viewable, and
> the list's archives can be browsed and searched on the Internet.  This
> means these messages can be viewed by (among others) your bosses,
> prospective employers, and people who have known you in the past.
>



 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The following was automatically added to this message by the list server:

To learn more about Micronet, including how to subscribe to or unsubscribe from its mailing list and how to find out about upcoming meetings, please visit the Micronet Web site:

http://micronet.berkeley.edu

Messages you send to this mailing list are public and world-viewable, and the list's archives can be browsed and searched on the Internet.  This means these messages can be viewed by (among others) your bosses, prospective employers, and people who have known you in the past.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Micronet] IE 9

Guy D. VINSON
In reply to this post by Scot Hacker
I think "It is absurd" just about sums it up... on one hand we are asked to support network security, on the other we are expected to allow the use of out of date applications because critical campus systems require it. But on the other hand I can count on getting a notice from IST for a HP4000 printer that might be posed to take over the world.
---
Guy Vinson
Infrastructure & IT
College of Environmental Design
510-842-7199



On Thu, Jun 23, 2011 at 11:07 AM, Scot Hacker <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Jun 23, 2011, at 10:48 AM, Greg Merritt wrote:

Could those old versions of Firefox for each OS be placed on software.berkeley.edu?  We all need them, and it would be very convenient to get them from this central location.

Not too put too fine a point on it, but we should *not* be developing workarounds and special software libraries and sticking users with old (possibly insecure) browsers because certain developers are building apps so standards non-compliant that they aren't even forwards compatible. The typical web developer's struggle is to make their sites work in *older* browsers, not the other way around. Can you think of another site anywhere on the net that breaks when you UPgrade your browser? I can't.

It is absurd that anyone on this campus is developing web-based applications that break this badly when new browsers come out. The problem here is *really* bad web development practices. It needs to be addressed at its source, not with the end users and sysadmins  scrambling around for band-aids and workarounds. We try to ensure that everyone in our department is using the absolute latest browser at all times, and we let them choose between FF, Safari and Chrome. These modern browsers work with *everything on the net* - how can some of UC Berkeley's critical systems be the lone exception? This problem makes our jobs harder than they need to be.

Sorry, just had to get that out of my system.

./s



-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The following was automatically added to this message by the list server:

To learn more about Micronet, including how to subscribe to or unsubscribe from its mailing list and how to find out about upcoming meetings, please visit the Micronet Web site:

http://micronet.berkeley.edu

Messages you send to this mailing list are public and world-viewable, and the list's archives can be browsed and searched on the Internet.  This means these messages can be viewed by (among others) your bosses, prospective employers, and people who have known you in the past.



 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The following was automatically added to this message by the list server:

To learn more about Micronet, including how to subscribe to or unsubscribe from its mailing list and how to find out about upcoming meetings, please visit the Micronet Web site:

http://micronet.berkeley.edu

Messages you send to this mailing list are public and world-viewable, and the list's archives can be browsed and searched on the Internet.  This means these messages can be viewed by (among others) your bosses, prospective employers, and people who have known you in the past.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Micronet] IE 9

Beth Muramoto
You had me hysterically laughing with this one, Guy. Could be madness setting in. I've had my share of those alerts too. While I understand that security is important, with limited resources becoming even more limited, I long for a way to make addressing these things more efficient from a global perspective. I don't have the answers, but there are days when I feel like I'm constantly chasing threats without the benefit of an efficient scalpel to excise the infection.

Beth


On Jun 23, 2011, at 11:20 AM, guy vinson wrote:

I think "It is absurd" just about sums it up... on one hand we are asked to support network security, on the other we are expected to allow the use of out of date applications because critical campus systems require it. But on the other hand I can count on getting a notice from IST for a HP4000 printer that might be posed to take over the world.
---
Guy Vinson
Infrastructure & IT
College of Environmental Design
510-842-7199



On Thu, Jun 23, 2011 at 11:07 AM, Scot Hacker <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Jun 23, 2011, at 10:48 AM, Greg Merritt wrote:

Could those old versions of Firefox for each OS be placed on software.berkeley.edu?  We all need them, and it would be very convenient to get them from this central location.

Not too put too fine a point on it, but we should *not* be developing workarounds and special software libraries and sticking users with old (possibly insecure) browsers because certain developers are building apps so standards non-compliant that they aren't even forwards compatible. The typical web developer's struggle is to make their sites work in *older* browsers, not the other way around. Can you think of another site anywhere on the net that breaks when you UPgrade your browser? I can't.

It is absurd that anyone on this campus is developing web-based applications that break this badly when new browsers come out. The problem here is *really* bad web development practices. It needs to be addressed at its source, not with the end users and sysadmins  scrambling around for band-aids and workarounds. We try to ensure that everyone in our department is using the absolute latest browser at all times, and we let them choose between FF, Safari and Chrome. These modern browsers work with *everything on the net* - how can some of UC Berkeley's critical systems be the lone exception? This problem makes our jobs harder than they need to be.

Sorry, just had to get that out of my system.

./s



-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The following was automatically added to this message by the list server:

To learn more about Micronet, including how to subscribe to or unsubscribe from its mailing list and how to find out about upcoming meetings, please visit the Micronet Web site:

http://micronet.berkeley.edu

Messages you send to this mailing list are public and world-viewable, and the list's archives can be browsed and searched on the Internet.  This means these messages can be viewed by (among others) your bosses, prospective employers, and people who have known you in the past.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The following was automatically added to this message by the list server:

To learn more about Micronet, including how to subscribe to or unsubscribe from its mailing list and how to find out about upcoming meetings, please visit the Micronet Web site:

http://micronet.berkeley.edu

Messages you send to this mailing list are public and world-viewable, and the list's archives can be browsed and searched on the Internet.  This means these messages can be viewed by (among others) your bosses, prospective employers, and people who have known you in the past.

***********************************************
Beth Muramoto
Computer Resource Specialist
Graduate School of Education
University of California, Berkeley
1650 Tolman Hall
Berkeley, CA 94720
Email:  [hidden email]
Phone:  (510) 643-0203 
Fax:  (510) 643-6239

The Formula for Success:  Underpromise, overdeliver.
- Tom Peters

You have to decide what your highest priorities are and have the courage to say 'no' to other things." 

-Stephen Covey

I'm a great believer in luck and I find the harder I work, the more I have of it. 

-Thomas Jefferson

***********************************************




 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The following was automatically added to this message by the list server:

To learn more about Micronet, including how to subscribe to or unsubscribe from its mailing list and how to find out about upcoming meetings, please visit the Micronet Web site:

http://micronet.berkeley.edu

Messages you send to this mailing list are public and world-viewable, and the list's archives can be browsed and searched on the Internet.  This means these messages can be viewed by (among others) your bosses, prospective employers, and people who have known you in the past.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Micronet] IE 9

Jonathan Felder
In reply to this post by Bill Clark
A VM is overkill. Consider that you will need a second Windows license
to run in the VM, not to mention the work of setting up and maintaining
the VM.

Sand boxing is a much better solution here.

http://www.sandboxie.com/

On 6/23/2011 11:20 AM, Bill Clark wrote:

> Hear, hear!
>
> In the meantime though, so that people can get their work done on the
> (unfortunately quite necessary) non-compliant systems, would it be
> feasible to use a local VM instead?  It could be set up with the
> appropriately outdated browser necessary for a particular app, and then
> locked down to prevent accidental upgrading.  Then users (and support
> staff) could feel free to upgrade their "real" desktop software to the
> latest and greatest versions, and also feel (slightly) more secure with
> the added layer of protection afforded by the VM.
>
> -Bill Clark
>
>>
>> On Jun 23, 2011, at 10:48 AM, Greg Merritt wrote:
>>
>>> Could those old versions of Firefox for each OS be placed on
>>> software.berkeley.edu?  We all need them, and it would be very
>>> convenient to get them from this central location.
>>
>> Not too put too fine a point on it, but we should *not* be developing
>> workarounds and special software libraries and sticking users with old
>> (possibly insecure) browsers because certain developers are building apps
>> so standards non-compliant that they aren't even forwards compatible. The
>> typical web developer's struggle is to make their sites work in *older*
>> browsers, not the other way around. Can you think of another site anywhere
>> on the net that breaks when you UPgrade your browser? I can't.
>>
>> It is absurd that anyone on this campus is developing web-based
>> applications that break this badly when new browsers come out. The problem
>> here is *really* bad web development practices. It needs to be addressed
>> at its source, not with the end users and sysadmins  scrambling around for
>> band-aids and workarounds. We try to ensure that everyone in our
>> department is using the absolute latest browser at all times, and we let
>> them choose between FF, Safari and Chrome. These modern browsers work with
>> *everything on the net* - how can some of UC Berkeley's critical systems
>> be the lone exception? This problem makes our jobs harder than they need
>> to be.
>>
>> Sorry, just had to get that out of my system.
>>
>> ./s
>>
>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> The following was automatically added to this message by the list server:
>>
>> To learn more about Micronet, including how to subscribe to or unsubscribe
>> from its mailing list and how to find out about upcoming meetings, please
>> visit the Micronet Web site:
>>
>> http://micronet.berkeley.edu
>>
>> Messages you send to this mailing list are public and world-viewable, and
>> the list's archives can be browsed and searched on the Internet.  This
>> means these messages can be viewed by (among others) your bosses,
>> prospective employers, and people who have known you in the past.
>>
>
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> The following was automatically added to this message by the list server:
>
> To learn more about Micronet, including how to subscribe to or unsubscribe from its mailing list and how to find out about upcoming meetings, please visit the Micronet Web site:
>
> http://micronet.berkeley.edu
>
> Messages you send to this mailing list are public and world-viewable, and the list's archives can be browsed and searched on the Internet.  This means these messages can be viewed by (among others) your bosses, prospective employers, and people who have known you in the past.

 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The following was automatically added to this message by the list server:

To learn more about Micronet, including how to subscribe to or unsubscribe from its mailing list and how to find out about upcoming meetings, please visit the Micronet Web site:

http://micronet.berkeley.edu

Messages you send to this mailing list are public and world-viewable, and the list's archives can be browsed and searched on the Internet.  This means these messages can be viewed by (among others) your bosses, prospective employers, and people who have known you in the past.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Micronet] IE 9

paul rivers
In reply to this post by Guy D. VINSON

I think we've seen printers take over the world, or at least seriously
disrupt our campus network.

I assume you're just blowing off steam about the HP4000. Unfortunately,
this re-enforces what is a very wrong understanding about networked
printers.  Printers can and now often do have operating systems complete
with persistent storage and all the rest, so that from a compromise
point of view, they are vulnerable as a desktop is vulnerable.

People are frequently unaware of this, and often plug printers into the
network and leave them to their fate.  As a result, printers end up
compromised and used to house warez sites, porn, participate in botnets,
send spam, or launch attacks on other campus devices.  This is not rare,
or merely theoretical.  It happens, and we see it happen on this campus.

SNS could start issuing security tickets on old browsers seen on the
network.  Analysis has been done on exactly this, and there are
reasonably solid detection methods to catch the the majority of the
worst offenders.  We've held off so far for a number of reasons I don't
want to address on a publicly indexed list.  However, we do expect to
start issuing tickets on this some time in the future.

If/when we do issue tickets on dated browsers in the future, SNS will be
sure to talk to these groups on campus running services requiring the
use outdated browser software, so you're not doubly aggrevated by a
security ticket about a situation you didn't want in the first place.
We'll be sure to discuss this in the Security Operations Workgroup well
before ticketing on dated browsers is implemented to see what can be
worked out to minimize the headaches.

It would be incorrect to paint IST with a single brush here.  SNS would
be the last group to be ok with the use of dated browser software.  It's
near the top of the list as a threat vector for desktop machines.

Regards,
Paul



On 06/23/2011 11:20 AM, guy vinson wrote:

> I think "It is absurd" just about sums it up... on one hand we are asked
> to support network security, on the other we are expected to allow the
> use of out of date applications because critical campus systems require
> it. But on the other hand I can count on getting a notice from IST for a
> HP4000 printer that might be posed to take over the world.
> ---
> Guy Vinson
> Infrastructure & IT
> College of Environmental Design
> 510-842-7199
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 23, 2011 at 11:07 AM, Scot Hacker <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>
>     On Jun 23, 2011, at 10:48 AM, Greg Merritt wrote:
>
>>     Could those old versions of Firefox for each OS be placed
>>     on software.berkeley.edu <http://software.berkeley.edu/>?  We all
>>     need them, and it would be very convenient to get them from this
>>     central location.
>
>     Not too put too fine a point on it, but we should *not* be
>     developing workarounds and special software libraries and sticking
>     users with old (possibly insecure) browsers because certain
>     developers are building apps so standards non-compliant that they
>     aren't even forwards compatible. The typical web developer's
>     struggle is to make their sites work in *older* browsers, not the
>     other way around. Can you think of another site anywhere on the net
>     that breaks when you UPgrade your browser? I can't.
>
>     It is absurd that anyone on this campus is developing web-based
>     applications that break this badly when new browsers come out. The
>     problem here is *really* bad web development practices. It needs to
>     be addressed at its source, not with the end users and sysadmins
>      scrambling around for band-aids and workarounds. We try to ensure
>     that everyone in our department is using the absolute latest browser
>     at all times, and we let them choose between FF, Safari and Chrome.
>     These modern browsers work with *everything on the net* - how can
>     some of UC Berkeley's critical systems be the lone exception? This
>     problem makes our jobs harder than they need to be.
>
>     Sorry, just had to get that out of my system.
>
>     ./s
>
>
>
>     -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>     The following was automatically added to this message by the list
>     server:
>
>     To learn more about Micronet, including how to subscribe to or
>     unsubscribe from its mailing list and how to find out about upcoming
>     meetings, please visit the Micronet Web site:
>
>     http://micronet.berkeley.edu
>
>     Messages you send to this mailing list are public and
>     world-viewable, and the list's archives can be browsed and searched
>     on the Internet.  This means these messages can be viewed by (among
>     others) your bosses, prospective employers, and people who have
>     known you in the past.
>
>
>
>
>  
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> The following was automatically added to this message by the list server:
>
> To learn more about Micronet, including how to subscribe to or unsubscribe from its mailing list and how to find out about upcoming meetings, please visit the Micronet Web site:
>
> http://micronet.berkeley.edu
>
> Messages you send to this mailing list are public and world-viewable, and the list's archives can be browsed and searched on the Internet.  This means these messages can be viewed by (among others) your bosses, prospective employers, and people who have known you in the past.


 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The following was automatically added to this message by the list server:

To learn more about Micronet, including how to subscribe to or unsubscribe from its mailing list and how to find out about upcoming meetings, please visit the Micronet Web site:

http://micronet.berkeley.edu

Messages you send to this mailing list are public and world-viewable, and the list's archives can be browsed and searched on the Internet.  This means these messages can be viewed by (among others) your bosses, prospective employers, and people who have known you in the past.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Micronet] IE 9

Tom Holub
In reply to this post by Scot Hacker
On 6/23/11 11:07 AM, Scot Hacker wrote:
>
> Not too put too fine a point on it, but we should *not* be developing
> workarounds and special software libraries and sticking users with old
> (possibly insecure) browsers because certain developers are building
> apps so standards non-compliant that they aren't even forwards
> compatible. The typical web developer's struggle is to make their sites
> work in *older* browsers, not the other way around. Can you think of
> another site anywhere on the net that breaks when you UPgrade your
> browser? I can't.

Let me start by acknowledging and agreeing with the sentiment that web
applications should be standards-compliant and browser-neutral, and that
any vendor who delivers a product which isn't is missing the point of
doing a web application in the first place.

And let me continue by asserting that it's going to get worse before it
gets better on campus, because the problem is our governance structure,
not really our technology.

The root cause is that functional owners--the people who make decisions
about what vendors to select and what applications to roll out--are
largely disconnected from end user populations.  Therefore, our typical
application start-up project includes a list of requirements (both
functional and technical) which are tailored to the needs of the
functional owner, not of the user population.  User requirements which
aren't aligned with the needs of the functional owner are treated as
additional burdens which would make the project slower and more expensive.

The reason it's going to get worse is that right now there's huge
pressure to get a wide variety of systems rolled out quickly, and with
our current governance that means that a lot of those systems will fail
to meet the functional and technical requirements of the end users.

For example, the new travel system is based on a vendor product which
has been in use at UCOP for several years.  UCOP is largely a
single-platform environment with strong administrative control of
desktop configurations; an application which works in that environment
will not necessarily work in an environment like Berkeley's.  And it
turns out, it doesn't; the system, which is expected to be used by
everyone who travels on campus (including the faculty), has no supported
Mac browser, and known issues with all the Mac browsers that have been
tried.  This is a simple case of the system not meeting what should have
been a baseline requirement for the project; the UCOP solution should
have been discarded as an option soon after project initiation.  But,
the functional owner has little incentive to delve deeply into the
technical requirements of the user population, and strong incentive to
gloss over any problems discovered.

I don't know what the browser support issues will be for Kronos, but
given that it includes client-side Java, I'm pretty sure it will be
browser-sensitive, and possibly will conflict with other campus systems
which require different JRE versions.  Again, the functional owner is
being strongly encouraged to develop a solution, and in some ways it
makes sense to leverage an existing solution which meets a functional
need, but using Kronos campus-wide opens up a whole new range of
functional and technical requirements that aren't present in the current
environment.

The great appeal of SAAS is that successful SAAS vendors (possibly
excluding Microsoft) have built their solutions from the ground up with
a mobile, multi-platform world in mind.  Applications built for a
stationary, single-platform world will always be difficult to implement
in Berkeley's environment.  But functional owners are still encouraged
to choose the latter kind of application, because in a narrow view they
are cheaper to deploy because they "leverage existing investments." [*]

Until and unless there is governance in place to encourage wise
technology choices, these issues will continue to arise.


[*] I will rant about the fallacies of sunk costs in enterprise systems
at the slightest provocation, but I'll leave that for another message.

--
Tom Holub ([hidden email], 510-642-9069)
Director of Computing, College of Letters & Science
101.D Durant Hall
<http://LSCR.berkeley.edu/>


 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The following was automatically added to this message by the list server:

To learn more about Micronet, including how to subscribe to or unsubscribe from its mailing list and how to find out about upcoming meetings, please visit the Micronet Web site:

http://micronet.berkeley.edu

Messages you send to this mailing list are public and world-viewable, and the list's archives can be browsed and searched on the Internet.  This means these messages can be viewed by (among others) your bosses, prospective employers, and people who have known you in the past.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Micronet] IE 9

Guy D. VINSON
In reply to this post by paul rivers
Forgive me if I sounded like I was berating IST, I'm sure they are just as frustrated with the situation as everyone else. It really comes down to too few "boots on the ground" to deal with everything that is asked of us. 
---
Guy Vinson
Infrastructure & IT
College of Environmental Design
510-842-7199



On Thu, Jun 23, 2011 at 1:05 PM, paul rivers <[hidden email]> wrote:

I think we've seen printers take over the world, or at least seriously
disrupt our campus network.

I assume you're just blowing off steam about the HP4000. Unfortunately,
this re-enforces what is a very wrong understanding about networked
printers.  Printers can and now often do have operating systems complete
with persistent storage and all the rest, so that from a compromise
point of view, they are vulnerable as a desktop is vulnerable.

People are frequently unaware of this, and often plug printers into the
network and leave them to their fate.  As a result, printers end up
compromised and used to house warez sites, porn, participate in botnets,
send spam, or launch attacks on other campus devices.  This is not rare,
or merely theoretical.  It happens, and we see it happen on this campus.

SNS could start issuing security tickets on old browsers seen on the
network.  Analysis has been done on exactly this, and there are
reasonably solid detection methods to catch the the majority of the
worst offenders.  We've held off so far for a number of reasons I don't
want to address on a publicly indexed list.  However, we do expect to
start issuing tickets on this some time in the future.

If/when we do issue tickets on dated browsers in the future, SNS will be
sure to talk to these groups on campus running services requiring the
use outdated browser software, so you're not doubly aggrevated by a
security ticket about a situation you didn't want in the first place.
We'll be sure to discuss this in the Security Operations Workgroup well
before ticketing on dated browsers is implemented to see what can be
worked out to minimize the headaches.

It would be incorrect to paint IST with a single brush here.  SNS would
be the last group to be ok with the use of dated browser software.  It's
near the top of the list as a threat vector for desktop machines.

Regards,
Paul



On 06/23/2011 11:20 AM, guy vinson wrote:
> I think "It is absurd" just about sums it up... on one hand we are asked
> to support network security, on the other we are expected to allow the
> use of out of date applications because critical campus systems require
> it. But on the other hand I can count on getting a notice from IST for a
> HP4000 printer that might be posed to take over the world.
> ---
> Guy Vinson
> Infrastructure & IT
> College of Environmental Design
> <a href="tel:510-842-7199" value="+15108427199">510-842-7199
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 23, 2011 at 11:07 AM, Scot Hacker <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>
>     On Jun 23, 2011, at 10:48 AM, Greg Merritt wrote:
>
>>     Could those old versions of Firefox for each OS be placed
>>     on software.berkeley.edu <http://software.berkeley.edu/>?  We all
>>     need them, and it would be very convenient to get them from this
>>     central location.
>
>     Not too put too fine a point on it, but we should *not* be
>     developing workarounds and special software libraries and sticking
>     users with old (possibly insecure) browsers because certain
>     developers are building apps so standards non-compliant that they
>     aren't even forwards compatible. The typical web developer's
>     struggle is to make their sites work in *older* browsers, not the
>     other way around. Can you think of another site anywhere on the net
>     that breaks when you UPgrade your browser? I can't.
>
>     It is absurd that anyone on this campus is developing web-based
>     applications that break this badly when new browsers come out. The
>     problem here is *really* bad web development practices. It needs to
>     be addressed at its source, not with the end users and sysadmins
>      scrambling around for band-aids and workarounds. We try to ensure
>     that everyone in our department is using the absolute latest browser
>     at all times, and we let them choose between FF, Safari and Chrome.
>     These modern browsers work with *everything on the net* - how can
>     some of UC Berkeley's critical systems be the lone exception? This
>     problem makes our jobs harder than they need to be.
>
>     Sorry, just had to get that out of my system.
>
>     ./s
>
>
>
>     -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>     The following was automatically added to this message by the list
>     server:
>
>     To learn more about Micronet, including how to subscribe to or
>     unsubscribe from its mailing list and how to find out about upcoming
>     meetings, please visit the Micronet Web site:
>
>     http://micronet.berkeley.edu
>
>     Messages you send to this mailing list are public and
>     world-viewable, and the list's archives can be browsed and searched
>     on the Internet.  This means these messages can be viewed by (among
>     others) your bosses, prospective employers, and people who have
>     known you in the past.
>
>
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> The following was automatically added to this message by the list server:
>
> To learn more about Micronet, including how to subscribe to or unsubscribe from its mailing list and how to find out about upcoming meetings, please visit the Micronet Web site:
>
> http://micronet.berkeley.edu
>
> Messages you send to this mailing list are public and world-viewable, and the list's archives can be browsed and searched on the Internet.  This means these messages can be viewed by (among others) your bosses, prospective employers, and people who have known you in the past.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The following was automatically added to this message by the list server:

To learn more about Micronet, including how to subscribe to or unsubscribe from its mailing list and how to find out about upcoming meetings, please visit the Micronet Web site:

http://micronet.berkeley.edu

Messages you send to this mailing list are public and world-viewable, and the list's archives can be browsed and searched on the Internet.  This means these messages can be viewed by (among others) your bosses, prospective employers, and people who have known you in the past.


 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The following was automatically added to this message by the list server:

To learn more about Micronet, including how to subscribe to or unsubscribe from its mailing list and how to find out about upcoming meetings, please visit the Micronet Web site:

http://micronet.berkeley.edu

Messages you send to this mailing list are public and world-viewable, and the list's archives can be browsed and searched on the Internet.  This means these messages can be viewed by (among others) your bosses, prospective employers, and people who have known you in the past.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Micronet] IE 9

Greg Merritt
In reply to this post by Tom Holub

On Jun 23, 2011, at 2:09 PM, Tom Holub wrote:

> I don't know what the browser support issues will be for Kronos, but
> given that it includes client-side Java, I'm pretty sure it will be
> browser-sensitive, and possibly will conflict with other campus systems
> which require different JRE versions.  Again, the functional owner is
> being strongly encouraged to develop a solution, and in some ways it
> makes sense to leverage an existing solution which meets a functional
> need, but using Kronos campus-wide opens up a whole new range of
> functional and technical requirements that aren't present in the current
> environment.


Kronos!!

A couple of years ago I went with my unit's head HR person to sit down and meet with the Kronos lead to talk about the possibility of handling our unit's payroll needs (positive time, local database & timesheet systems, batch upload to the mainframe) by Kronos instead of in-house.

In short, the answer was effectively "sure, no problem! Just hire me a developer for about a year and we can build all of that functionality into Kronos to cover time accounting and payroll for units like yours."

I'll pop some popcorn and put on my 3D glasses to watch the Kronos transition when it happens...! o.0

-Greg
 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The following was automatically added to this message by the list server:

To learn more about Micronet, including how to subscribe to or unsubscribe from its mailing list and how to find out about upcoming meetings, please visit the Micronet Web site:

http://micronet.berkeley.edu

Messages you send to this mailing list are public and world-viewable, and the list's archives can be browsed and searched on the Internet.  This means these messages can be viewed by (among others) your bosses, prospective employers, and people who have known you in the past.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Micronet] IE 9

Michael Sinatra-2
On 06/23/11 15:40, Greg Merritt wrote:

>
> On Jun 23, 2011, at 2:09 PM, Tom Holub wrote:
>
>> I don't know what the browser support issues will be for Kronos, but
>> given that it includes client-side Java, I'm pretty sure it will be
>> browser-sensitive, and possibly will conflict with other campus systems
>> which require different JRE versions.  Again, the functional owner is
>> being strongly encouraged to develop a solution, and in some ways it
>> makes sense to leverage an existing solution which meets a functional
>> need, but using Kronos campus-wide opens up a whole new range of
>> functional and technical requirements that aren't present in the current
>> environment.
>
>
> Kronos!!
>
> A couple of years ago I went with my unit's head HR person to sit down and meet with the Kronos lead to talk about the possibility of handling our unit's payroll needs (positive time, local database&  timesheet systems, batch upload to the mainframe) by Kronos instead of in-house.
>
> In short, the answer was effectively "sure, no problem! Just hire me a developer for about a year and we can build all of that functionality into Kronos to cover time accounting and payroll for units like yours."
>
> I'll pop some popcorn and put on my 3D glasses to watch the Kronos transition when it happens...! o.0

And yet, somehow, UCLA, a campus far more decentralized than Berkeley,
seems to manage to use Kronos for all of its timekeeping needs, and has
done so for several years.

michael

 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The following was automatically added to this message by the list server:

To learn more about Micronet, including how to subscribe to or unsubscribe from its mailing list and how to find out about upcoming meetings, please visit the Micronet Web site:

http://micronet.berkeley.edu

Messages you send to this mailing list are public and world-viewable, and the list's archives can be browsed and searched on the Internet.  This means these messages can be viewed by (among others) your bosses, prospective employers, and people who have known you in the past.
12