[Micronet] bMail and Thunderbird

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[Micronet] bMail and Thunderbird

Mike Friedman
This is more a "user experience" question, rather than a problem report, so instead of sending it to the bConnected team, I figured I'd avail myself of the collective wisdom (and experience) of the folks on this list.

My bMail account has been activated and migrated since Thursday and I've been using it via my Thunderbird client (Windows 7).  My email practice for many years has been to remove email from my Inbox as soon as I can, especially if it's personal mail that I don't want to stay on the server any longer than necessary.  (This is why I plan to continue using Thunderbird, rather than the Google web interface, since I like to keep much of my useful mail in local folders and I'm not really interested in Google's extra bells and whistles).

What I've found empirically, with both CalMail and bMail, is that moving a piece of mail, via drag and drop, from the Inbox to a local folder has the effect of a "delete" of the mail, insofar as my Inbox is concerned.  That is, the mail is then gone from the Inbox.

Unfortunately, with bMail there's this special folder called "All Mail", which I gather is just an alternative view of the union of all my folders that are on the server.  (With, apparently, some exceptions, like "Deleted" and "Spam").  And, indeed, if I click the "Delete" button to remove a message from my Inbox, it gets removed from the "All Mail" view as well.  However, if I just drag and drop (Move, not Copy) the mail from my Inbox to a local folder, the mail stays in "All Mail", even though it is deleted from my Inbox.  I then must delete it manually from "All Mail" in order truly to remove it from the server.

Why doesn't a drag and drop "Move" also cause a delete from "All Mail", even though it does act as delete on the Inbox?  Is there any way to change this behavior, so that when I move mail out of my Inbox it will be automatically deleted from "All Mail" as well?  If the mail is no longer in any other server folder, how come it still shows in "All Mail".  At first, I thought there was just some delay before the mail gets removed from "All Mail", but if so, that delay seems to be at least the better part of an hour.

Thanks.

Mike
-- 
Mike Friedman
[hidden email]
http://mikefberkeley.com


 
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Re: [Micronet] bMail and Thunderbird

Graham Patterson

What happens if the Thunderbird filter is re-written to do a _copy_ from
Inbox to Local Folder X, then a _delete_ from Inbox sequence of actions?
If the Move is being interpreted as a re-label, that might work. Always
a slight risk that the copy files but the delete succeeds, I suppose.

I'd test it on a manually run filter on a test label rather than Inbox
the first few times, naturally.


Graham


On 11/23/2012 10:16 AM, Mike Friedman wrote:

> This is more a "user experience" question, rather than a problem report,
> so instead of sending it to the *bConnected* team, I figured I'd avail
> myself of the collective wisdom (and experience) of the folks on this list.
>
> My *bMail* account has been activated and migrated since Thursday and
> I've been using it via my Thunderbird client (Windows 7).  My email
> practice for many years has been to remove email from my Inbox as soon
> as I can, especially if it's personal mail that I don't want to stay on
> the server any longer than necessary.  (This is why I plan to continue
> using Thunderbird, rather than the Google web interface, since I like to
> keep much of my useful mail in local folders and I'm not really
> interested in Google's extra bells and whistles).
>
> What I've found empirically, with both *CalMail* and *bMail*, is that
> moving a piece of mail, via drag and drop, from the Inbox to a local
> folder has the effect of a "delete" of the mail, insofar as my Inbox is
> concerned.  That is, the mail is then gone from the Inbox.
>
> Unfortunately, with *bMail* there's this special folder called "All
> Mail", which I gather is just an alternative view of the union of all my
> folders that are on the server.  (With, apparently, some exceptions,
> like "Deleted" and "Spam").  And, indeed, if I click the "Delete" button
> to remove a message from my Inbox, it gets removed from the "All Mail"
> view as well.  However, if I just drag and drop (Move, /not/ Copy) the
> mail from my Inbox to a local folder, the mail stays in "All Mail", even
> though it /is/ deleted from my Inbox.  I then must delete it manually
> from "All Mail" in order truly to remove it from the server.
>
> Why doesn't a drag and drop "Move" also cause a delete from "All Mail",
> even though it does act as delete on the Inbox?  Is there any way to
> change this behavior, so that when I move mail out of my Inbox it will
> be automatically deleted from "All Mail" as well?  If the mail is no
> longer in any other server folder, how come it still shows in "All
> Mail".  At first, I thought there was just some delay before the mail
> gets removed from "All Mail", but if so, that delay seems to be at least
> the better part of an hour.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Mike
>
>
>
>
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> To learn more about Micronet, including how to subscribe to or unsubscribe from its mailing list and how to find out about upcoming meetings, please visit the Micronet Web site:
>
> http://micronet.berkeley.edu
>
> Messages you send to this mailing list are public and world-viewable, and the list's archives can be browsed and searched on the Internet.  This means these messages can be viewed by (among others) your bosses, prospective employers, and people who have known you in the past.
>

--
Graham Patterson, System Administrator
Lawrence Hall of Science, UC Berkeley

 
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Re: [Micronet] bMail and Thunderbird

Graham Patterson

That should be 'fails' not 'files'. Write what I think, dammit!

G.

On 11/23/2012 12:58 PM, Graham Patterson wrote:
> a slight risk that the copy files but the delete succeeds, I suppose.--
Graham Patterson, System Administrator
Lawrence Hall of Science, UC Berkeley

 
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Re: [Micronet] bMail and Thunderbird

Mike Friedman
In reply to this post by Mike Friedman
On 2012-11-23 10:27, Bill Allison wrote:
Hey Mike,

If you go into settings (the gear icon top right), and choose Imap & Forwarding, you will see various options, including this one:

Inline image 1

Hope that helps!

Bill,

Unfortunately, the first choice above (marked as "default") is already set and it can't be changed unless I first change the prior setting ("When I mark a message in IMAP as deleted"), from "Auto-Expunge On (immediately update the server)" to "Auto-Expunge Off (wait for the client to update the server)".  So, I did this and then checked the second box above ("Move the message to the Trash"), but to no avail.  Dragging mail from my Inbox to a local folder still leaves it in "All Mail", even though it has been removed from the Inbox (and appears in no other server folder).

Mike





On Fri, Nov 23, 2012 at 10:16 AM, Mike Friedman <[hidden email]> wrote:
This is more a "user experience" question, rather than a problem report, so instead of sending it to the bConnected team, I figured I'd avail myself of the collective wisdom (and experience) of the folks on this list.

My bMail account has been activated and migrated since Thursday and I've been using it via my Thunderbird client (Windows 7).  My email practice for many years has been to remove email from my Inbox as soon as I can, especially if it's personal mail that I don't want to stay on the server any longer than necessary.  (This is why I plan to continue using Thunderbird, rather than the Google web interface, since I like to keep much of my useful mail in local folders and I'm not really interested in Google's extra bells and whistles).

What I've found empirically, with both CalMail and bMail, is that moving a piece of mail, via drag and drop, from the Inbox to a local folder has the effect of a "delete" of the mail, insofar as my Inbox is concerned.  That is, the mail is then gone from the Inbox.

Unfortunately, with bMail there's this special folder called "All Mail", which I gather is just an alternative view of the union of all my folders that are on the server.  (With, apparently, some exceptions, like "Deleted" and "Spam").  And, indeed, if I click the "Delete" button to remove a message from my Inbox, it gets removed from the "All Mail" view as well.  However, if I just drag and drop (Move, not Copy) the mail from my Inbox to a local folder, the mail stays in "All Mail", even though it is deleted from my Inbox.  I then must delete it manually from "All Mail" in order truly to remove it from the server.

Why doesn't a drag and drop "Move" also cause a delete from "All Mail", even though it does act as delete on the Inbox?  Is there any way to change this behavior, so that when I move mail out of my Inbox it will be automatically deleted from "All Mail" as well?  If the mail is no longer in any other server folder, how come it still shows in "All Mail".  At first, I thought there was just some delay before the mail gets removed from "All Mail", but if so, that delay seems to be at least the better part of an hour.

Thanks.

Mike
-- 
Mike Friedman
[hidden email]
http://mikefberkeley.com



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-- 
Mike Friedman
[hidden email]
http://mikefberkeley.com


 
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Re: [Micronet] bMail and Thunderbird

Mike Friedman
In reply to this post by Graham Patterson
Graham,

I'm not using a filter;  I"m just doing the drag and drop.  And the mail is actually being deleted from the Inbox.  But not from "All Mail".

But speaking of Thunderbird filters, I seem to be having trouble getting them to work automatically.  I set up a simple filter that would move mail with a particular subject line to another folder (on the server, in fact).  But it didn't get triggered upon arrival of that mail.  Yet, when I ran the filter manually, the mail was immediately moved from the Inbox to the specified folder as it should be.

Mike


On 2012-11-23 12:58, Graham Patterson wrote:
What happens if the Thunderbird filter is re-written to do a _copy_ from 
Inbox to Local Folder X, then a _delete_ from Inbox sequence of actions? 
If the Move is being interpreted as a re-label, that might work. Always 
a slight risk that the copy files but the delete succeeds, I suppose.

I'd test it on a manually run filter on a test label rather than Inbox 
the first few times, naturally.


Graham


On 11/23/2012 10:16 AM, Mike Friedman wrote:
This is more a "user experience" question, rather than a problem report,
so instead of sending it to the *bConnected* team, I figured I'd avail
myself of the collective wisdom (and experience) of the folks on this list.

My *bMail* account has been activated and migrated since Thursday and
I've been using it via my Thunderbird client (Windows 7).  My email
practice for many years has been to remove email from my Inbox as soon
as I can, especially if it's personal mail that I don't want to stay on
the server any longer than necessary.  (This is why I plan to continue
using Thunderbird, rather than the Google web interface, since I like to
keep much of my useful mail in local folders and I'm not really
interested in Google's extra bells and whistles).

What I've found empirically, with both *CalMail* and *bMail*, is that
moving a piece of mail, via drag and drop, from the Inbox to a local
folder has the effect of a "delete" of the mail, insofar as my Inbox is
concerned.  That is, the mail is then gone from the Inbox.

Unfortunately, with *bMail* there's this special folder called "All
Mail", which I gather is just an alternative view of the union of all my
folders that are on the server.  (With, apparently, some exceptions,
like "Deleted" and "Spam").  And, indeed, if I click the "Delete" button
to remove a message from my Inbox, it gets removed from the "All Mail"
view as well.  However, if I just drag and drop (Move, /not/ Copy) the
mail from my Inbox to a local folder, the mail stays in "All Mail", even
though it /is/ deleted from my Inbox.  I then must delete it manually
from "All Mail" in order truly to remove it from the server.

Why doesn't a drag and drop "Move" also cause a delete from "All Mail",
even though it does act as delete on the Inbox?  Is there any way to
change this behavior, so that when I move mail out of my Inbox it will
be automatically deleted from "All Mail" as well?  If the mail is no
longer in any other server folder, how come it still shows in "All
Mail".  At first, I thought there was just some delay before the mail
gets removed from "All Mail", but if so, that delay seems to be at least
the better part of an hour.

Thanks.

Mike




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-- 
Mike Friedman
[hidden email]
http://mikefberkeley.com


 
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Re: [Micronet] bMail and Thunderbird

Mimi Mugler-2
In reply to this post by Mike Friedman
Mike,
I don't have an answer to your particular question, but I wanted to comment on how you're thinking about things. Working with Gmail/bMail requires that you stop thinking in terms of moving things from one folder to another. It's all about a big bucket with lots of labels. Everything (except Trash and Spam) exists in 1 bucket, All Mail. Viewing a piece of mail in any other "folder", including the inbox, means that that piece of mail has that label. So when you think you're dragging something "out of the inbox", what are you really doing is removing the inbox label from it. But it's still in All Mail. So, yes, you will have to delete the email as well as remove the inbox label. It's a different way of thinking about email. Personally, I am really liking being able to apply multiple labels to mail.

Mimi

On Fri, Nov 23, 2012 at 10:16 AM, Mike Friedman <[hidden email]> wrote:
This is more a "user experience" question, rather than a problem report, so instead of sending it to the bConnected team, I figured I'd avail myself of the collective wisdom (and experience) of the folks on this list.

My bMail account has been activated and migrated since Thursday and I've been using it via my Thunderbird client (Windows 7).  My email practice for many years has been to remove email from my Inbox as soon as I can, especially if it's personal mail that I don't want to stay on the server any longer than necessary.  (This is why I plan to continue using Thunderbird, rather than the Google web interface, since I like to keep much of my useful mail in local folders and I'm not really interested in Google's extra bells and whistles).

What I've found empirically, with both CalMail and bMail, is that moving a piece of mail, via drag and drop, from the Inbox to a local folder has the effect of a "delete" of the mail, insofar as my Inbox is concerned.  That is, the mail is then gone from the Inbox.

Unfortunately, with bMail there's this special folder called "All Mail", which I gather is just an alternative view of the union of all my folders that are on the server.  (With, apparently, some exceptions, like "Deleted" and "Spam").  And, indeed, if I click the "Delete" button to remove a message from my Inbox, it gets removed from the "All Mail" view as well.  However, if I just drag and drop (Move, not Copy) the mail from my Inbox to a local folder, the mail stays in "All Mail", even though it is deleted from my Inbox.  I then must delete it manually from "All Mail" in order truly to remove it from the server.

Why doesn't a drag and drop "Move" also cause a delete from "All Mail", even though it does act as delete on the Inbox?  Is there any way to change this behavior, so that when I move mail out of my Inbox it will be automatically deleted from "All Mail" as well?  If the mail is no longer in any other server folder, how come it still shows in "All Mail".  At first, I thought there was just some delay before the mail gets removed from "All Mail", but if so, that delay seems to be at least the better part of an hour.

Thanks.

Mike
-- 
Mike Friedman
[hidden email]
http://mikefberkeley.com



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--
Mimi Mugler
bConnected Team (UC Berkeley Google Apps for Education)
510.642.6157



 
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Re: [Micronet] bMail and Thunderbird

Richard DeShong-2
In reply to this post by Mike Friedman

What is sounds like bMail is doing:  When you use Thunderbird to move the mail to a local folder, google is removing the “inbox” label on the email.  The All Mail filter shows all mail except for those with the Spam and Deleted labels.  Thus your moved email doesn’t have an InBox label, so it doesn’t show up when you pick that filter, but it still shows when you pick the All Mail filter.  Remember, on google, all of your mail is in a single folder.  You just change the view filter to display mail with or without particular labels.

 

 

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Mike Friedman
Sent: Friday, November 23, 2012 1:30 PM
To: [hidden email]
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Micronet] bMail and Thunderbird

 

Graham,

I'm not using a filter;  I"m just doing the drag and drop.  And the mail is actually being deleted from the Inbox.  But not from "All Mail".

But speaking of Thunderbird filters, I seem to be having trouble getting them to work automatically.  I set up a simple filter that would move mail with a particular subject line to another folder (on the server, in fact).  But it didn't get triggered upon arrival of that mail.  Yet, when I ran the filter manually, the mail was immediately moved from the Inbox to the specified folder as it should be.

Mike


On 2012-11-23 12:58, Graham Patterson wrote:

 
What happens if the Thunderbird filter is re-written to do a _copy_ from 
Inbox to Local Folder X, then a _delete_ from Inbox sequence of actions? 
If the Move is being interpreted as a re-label, that might work. Always 
a slight risk that the copy files but the delete succeeds, I suppose.
 
I'd test it on a manually run filter on a test label rather than Inbox 
the first few times, naturally.
 
 
Graham
 
 
On 11/23/2012 10:16 AM, Mike Friedman wrote:
This is more a "user experience" question, rather than a problem report,
so instead of sending it to the *bConnected* team, I figured I'd avail
myself of the collective wisdom (and experience) of the folks on this list.
 
My *bMail* account has been activated and migrated since Thursday and
I've been using it via my Thunderbird client (Windows 7).  My email
practice for many years has been to remove email from my Inbox as soon
as I can, especially if it's personal mail that I don't want to stay on
the server any longer than necessary.  (This is why I plan to continue
using Thunderbird, rather than the Google web interface, since I like to
keep much of my useful mail in local folders and I'm not really
interested in Google's extra bells and whistles).
 
What I've found empirically, with both *CalMail* and *bMail*, is that
moving a piece of mail, via drag and drop, from the Inbox to a local
folder has the effect of a "delete" of the mail, insofar as my Inbox is
concerned.  That is, the mail is then gone from the Inbox.
 
Unfortunately, with *bMail* there's this special folder called "All
Mail", which I gather is just an alternative view of the union of all my
folders that are on the server.  (With, apparently, some exceptions,
like "Deleted" and "Spam").  And, indeed, if I click the "Delete" button
to remove a message from my Inbox, it gets removed from the "All Mail"
view as well.  However, if I just drag and drop (Move, /not/ Copy) the
mail from my Inbox to a local folder, the mail stays in "All Mail", even
though it /is/ deleted from my Inbox.  I then must delete it manually
from "All Mail" in order truly to remove it from the server.
 
Why doesn't a drag and drop "Move" also cause a delete from "All Mail",
even though it does act as delete on the Inbox?  Is there any way to
change this behavior, so that when I move mail out of my Inbox it will
be automatically deleted from "All Mail" as well?  If the mail is no
longer in any other server folder, how come it still shows in "All
Mail".  At first, I thought there was just some delay before the mail
gets removed from "All Mail", but if so, that delay seems to be at least
the better part of an hour.
 
Thanks.
 
Mike
 
 
 
 
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To learn more about Micronet, including how to subscribe to or unsubscribe from its mailing list and how to find out about upcoming meetings, please visit the Micronet Web site:
 
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Messages you send to this mailing list are public and world-viewable, and the list's archives can be browsed and searched on the Internet.  This means these messages can be viewed by (among others) your bosses, prospective employers, and people who have known you in the past.
 
 




-- 
Mike Friedman
[hidden email]
http://mikefberkeley.com
 

 
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Re: [Micronet] bMail and Thunderbird

Dianne Walker
If you have an iPhone, how are drafts handled?  I clicked on "Save Draft," but there is no mailbox named "Draft," and it's not clear to me how to isolate/find a label, if there is one labelled "Draft."

I get the rethinking, but do not think this is covered anywhere.

TIA,

Dianne

On Nov 23, 2012, at 1:46 PM, Richard DeShong <[hidden email]> wrote:

What is sounds like bMail is doing:  When you use Thunderbird to move the mail to a local folder, google is removing the “inbox” label on the email.  The All Mail filter shows all mail except for those with the Spam and Deleted labels.  Thus your moved email doesn’t have an InBox label, so it doesn’t show up when you pick that filter, but it still shows when you pick the All Mail filter.  Remember, on google, all of your mail is in a single folder.  You just change the view filter to display mail with or without particular labels.

 

 

From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Mike Friedman
Sent: Friday, November 23, 2012 1:30 PM
To: [hidden email]
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Micronet] bMail and Thunderbird

 

Graham,

I'm not using a filter;  I"m just doing the drag and drop.  And the mail is actually being deleted from the Inbox.  But not from "All Mail".

But speaking of Thunderbird filters, I seem to be having trouble getting them to work automatically.  I set up a simple filter that would move mail with a particular subject line to another folder (on the server, in fact).  But it didn't get triggered upon arrival of that mail.  Yet, when I ran the filter manually, the mail was immediately moved from the Inbox to the specified folder as it should be.

Mike


On 2012-11-23 12:58, Graham Patterson wrote:

 
What happens if the Thunderbird filter is re-written to do a _copy_ from 
Inbox to Local Folder X, then a _delete_ from Inbox sequence of actions? 
If the Move is being interpreted as a re-label, that might work. Always 
a slight risk that the copy files but the delete succeeds, I suppose.
 
I'd test it on a manually run filter on a test label rather than Inbox 
the first few times, naturally.
 
 
Graham
 
 
On 11/23/2012 10:16 AM, Mike Friedman wrote:
This is more a "user experience" question, rather than a problem report,
so instead of sending it to the *bConnected* team, I figured I'd avail
myself of the collective wisdom (and experience) of the folks on this list.
 
My *bMail* account has been activated and migrated since Thursday and
I've been using it via my Thunderbird client (Windows 7).  My email
practice for many years has been to remove email from my Inbox as soon
as I can, especially if it's personal mail that I don't want to stay on
the server any longer than necessary.  (This is why I plan to continue
using Thunderbird, rather than the Google web interface, since I like to
keep much of my useful mail in local folders and I'm not really
interested in Google's extra bells and whistles).
 
What I've found empirically, with both *CalMail* and *bMail*, is that
moving a piece of mail, via drag and drop, from the Inbox to a local
folder has the effect of a "delete" of the mail, insofar as my Inbox is
concerned.  That is, the mail is then gone from the Inbox.
 
Unfortunately, with *bMail* there's this special folder called "All
Mail", which I gather is just an alternative view of the union of all my
folders that are on the server.  (With, apparently, some exceptions,
like "Deleted" and "Spam").  And, indeed, if I click the "Delete" button
to remove a message from my Inbox, it gets removed from the "All Mail"
view as well.  However, if I just drag and drop (Move, /not/ Copy) the
mail from my Inbox to a local folder, the mail stays in "All Mail", even
though it /is/ deleted from my Inbox.  I then must delete it manually
from "All Mail" in order truly to remove it from the server.
 
Why doesn't a drag and drop "Move" also cause a delete from "All Mail",
even though it does act as delete on the Inbox?  Is there any way to
change this behavior, so that when I move mail out of my Inbox it will
be automatically deleted from "All Mail" as well?  If the mail is no
longer in any other server folder, how come it still shows in "All
Mail".  At first, I thought there was just some delay before the mail
gets removed from "All Mail", but if so, that delay seems to be at least
the better part of an hour.
 
Thanks.
 
Mike
 
 
 
 
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Re: [Micronet] bMail and Thunderbird

Mike Friedman
In reply to this post by Mimi Mugler-2
Mimi,

Thanks for the explanation;  now I understand what's going on.  Unfortunately, this means each time I process a piece of mail I have to remove at least 2 labels from it, as well as moving the mail to the local folder where I want to keep it.  Which means I wind up checking up and back to make sure the mail has been moved to the local folder before I actually do the deletes.  Since often, as with this very discussion, the subject lines of several pieces of mail look alike, it's not easy at a glance to tell what's been moved and what's not.  So I have to be very careful before actually doing the deletes.

Which brings me to a related point.  Apparently Google mail is automatically deciding that certain incoming mail is "Important".  Which means it winds up in the "Important" folder (as seen from Thunderbird).  I suppose that's just another label.  So, in order to make sure my mail is really gone from the server, is it sufficient for me just to delete it once, from "All Mail"?  Or must I "remove" it from every "folder" in which it appears?  Of course, I must first move it to my local folder and it's hard to tell what I've already moved, since the mail still appears in these other "folders" until it's actually gone from "All Mail".  This makes for a very cumbersome process, which used to consist just of read, drag and drop to local folder.  Now it's read, drag and drop, delete from "All Mail", but before doing the latter, making absolutely sure I have, in fact, already moved it.

Thanks.

Mike

On 2012-11-23 13:38, Mimi MUGLER wrote:
Mike,
I don't have an answer to your particular question, but I wanted to comment on how you're thinking about things. Working with Gmail/bMail requires that you stop thinking in terms of moving things from one folder to another. It's all about a big bucket with lots of labels. Everything (except Trash and Spam) exists in 1 bucket, All Mail. Viewing a piece of mail in any other "folder", including the inbox, means that that piece of mail has that label. So when you think you're dragging something "out of the inbox", what are you really doing is removing the inbox label from it. But it's still in All Mail. So, yes, you will have to delete the email as well as remove the inbox label. It's a different way of thinking about email. Personally, I am really liking being able to apply multiple labels to mail.

Mimi

On Fri, Nov 23, 2012 at 10:16 AM, Mike Friedman <[hidden email]> wrote:
This is more a "user experience" question, rather than a problem report, so instead of sending it to the bConnected team, I figured I'd avail myself of the collective wisdom (and experience) of the folks on this list.

My bMail account has been activated and migrated since Thursday and I've been using it via my Thunderbird client (Windows 7).  My email practice for many years has been to remove email from my Inbox as soon as I can, especially if it's personal mail that I don't want to stay on the server any longer than necessary.  (This is why I plan to continue using Thunderbird, rather than the Google web interface, since I like to keep much of my useful mail in local folders and I'm not really interested in Google's extra bells and whistles).

What I've found empirically, with both CalMail and bMail, is that moving a piece of mail, via drag and drop, from the Inbox to a local folder has the effect of a "delete" of the mail, insofar as my Inbox is concerned.  That is, the mail is then gone from the Inbox.

Unfortunately, with bMail there's this special folder called "All Mail", which I gather is just an alternative view of the union of all my folders that are on the server.  (With, apparently, some exceptions, like "Deleted" and "Spam").  And, indeed, if I click the "Delete" button to remove a message from my Inbox, it gets removed from the "All Mail" view as well.  However, if I just drag and drop (Move, not Copy) the mail from my Inbox to a local folder, the mail stays in "All Mail", even though it is deleted from my Inbox.  I then must delete it manually from "All Mail" in order truly to remove it from the server.

Why doesn't a drag and drop "Move" also cause a delete from "All Mail", even though it does act as delete on the Inbox?  Is there any way to change this behavior, so that when I move mail out of my Inbox it will be automatically deleted from "All Mail" as well?  If the mail is no longer in any other server folder, how come it still shows in "All Mail".  At first, I thought there was just some delay before the mail gets removed from "All Mail", but if so, that delay seems to be at least the better part of an hour.

Thanks.

Mike
-- 
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[hidden email]
http://mikefberkeley.com



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bConnected Team (UC Berkeley Google Apps for Education)
510.642.6157




-- 
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[hidden email]
http://mikefberkeley.com


 
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Re: [Micronet] bMail and Thunderbird

Terri Kouba
Hi Mike,

I know that one size doesn't fit all, but here's what I do: 

I have a filter and it set up to: skip the inbox, mark as read and apply the label xxxx (so it goes into another 'folder' in the Thunderbird view).
http://support.google.com/mail/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=2802754&rd=1


Regarding the 'important' label, I turn that off by hiding it from the web interface and in Thunderbird.  Below is a screenshot of the gmail 'settings'.  You can see that I don't show the 'all mail' label either.




These solutions may not work for your situation, though, since you're dealing with deleting messages at the same time.

Good luck!

Terri

Mike Friedman wrote, On 11/23/2012 1:56 PM:
Mimi,

Thanks for the explanation;  now I understand what's going on.  Unfortunately, this means each time I process a piece of mail I have to remove at least 2 labels from it, as well as moving the mail to the local folder where I want to keep it.  Which means I wind up checking up and back to make sure the mail has been moved to the local folder before I actually do the deletes.  Since often, as with this very discussion, the subject lines of several pieces of mail look alike, it's not easy at a glance to tell what's been moved and what's not.  So I have to be very careful before actually doing the deletes.

Which brings me to a related point.  Apparently Google mail is automatically deciding that certain incoming mail is "Important".  Which means it winds up in the "Important" folder (as seen from Thunderbird).  I suppose that's just another label.  So, in order to make sure my mail is really gone from the server, is it sufficient for me just to delete it once, from "All Mail"?  Or must I "remove" it from every "folder" in which it appears?  Of course, I must first move it to my local folder and it's hard to tell what I've already moved, since the mail still appears in these other "folders" until it's actually gone from "All Mail".  This makes for a very cumbersome process, which used to consist just of read, drag and drop to local folder.  Now it's read, drag and drop, delete from "All Mail", but before doing the latter, making absolutely sure I have, in fact, already moved it.

Thanks.

Mike

On 2012-11-23 13:38, Mimi MUGLER wrote:
Mike,
I don't have an answer to your particular question, but I wanted to comment on how you're thinking about things. Working with Gmail/bMail requires that you stop thinking in terms of moving things from one folder to another. It's all about a big bucket with lots of labels. Everything (except Trash and Spam) exists in 1 bucket, All Mail. Viewing a piece of mail in any other "folder", including the inbox, means that that piece of mail has that label. So when you think you're dragging something "out of the inbox", what are you really doing is removing the inbox label from it. But it's still in All Mail. So, yes, you will have to delete the email as well as remove the inbox label. It's a different way of thinking about email. Personally, I am really liking being able to apply multiple labels to mail.

Mimi

On Fri, Nov 23, 2012 at 10:16 AM, Mike Friedman <[hidden email]> wrote:
This is more a "user experience" question, rather than a problem report, so instead of sending it to the bConnected team, I figured I'd avail myself of the collective wisdom (and experience) of the folks on this list.

My bMail account has been activated and migrated since Thursday and I've been using it via my Thunderbird client (Windows 7).  My email practice for many years has been to remove email from my Inbox as soon as I can, especially if it's personal mail that I don't want to stay on the server any longer than necessary.  (This is why I plan to continue using Thunderbird, rather than the Google web interface, since I like to keep much of my useful mail in local folders and I'm not really interested in Google's extra bells and whistles).

What I've found empirically, with both CalMail and bMail, is that moving a piece of mail, via drag and drop, from the Inbox to a local folder has the effect of a "delete" of the mail, insofar as my Inbox is concerned.  That is, the mail is then gone from the Inbox.

Unfortunately, with bMail there's this special folder called "All Mail", which I gather is just an alternative view of the union of all my folders that are on the server.  (With, apparently, some exceptions, like "Deleted" and "Spam").  And, indeed, if I click the "Delete" button to remove a message from my Inbox, it gets removed from the "All Mail" view as well.  However, if I just drag and drop (Move, not Copy) the mail from my Inbox to a local folder, the mail stays in "All Mail", even though it is deleted from my Inbox.  I then must delete it manually from "All Mail" in order truly to remove it from the server.

Why doesn't a drag and drop "Move" also cause a delete from "All Mail", even though it does act as delete on the Inbox?  Is there any way to change this behavior, so that when I move mail out of my Inbox it will be automatically deleted from "All Mail" as well?  If the mail is no longer in any other server folder, how come it still shows in "All Mail".  At first, I thought there was just some delay before the mail gets removed from "All Mail", but if so, that delay seems to be at least the better part of an hour.

Thanks.

Mike
-- 
Mike Friedman
[hidden email]
http://mikefberkeley.com



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bConnected Team (UC Berkeley Google Apps for Education)
510.642.6157




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[hidden email]
http://mikefberkeley.com



 
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Re: [Micronet] bMail and Thunderbird

Mike Friedman
Terri,

I appreciate your suggestion, but I'm afraid it doesn't address my main concern.  What I'm most interested in is being able to get my mail off the server as soon as possible.  On general principles, I don't like the idea of my personal mail residing at Google for any appreciable length of time.  When the mail was on a UC server, this might not have been as big a deal (since UC, unlike Google, doesn't have a business model that involves integrating the content of users' mail with a slew of its other services).  Though, ironically, with CalMail it was trivial to remove my mail from the server, since this was an automatic byproduct of moving it to a local folder.  Unfortunately, Google's philosophy seems to be that users should work with their mail on the server (using the web interface), even treating the server as their ongoing email repository.  After all, it's not very easy to move a piece of mail from the server to a folder on my computer using the web interface.  As an analogy, imagine that in order to receive Postal mail you required a box at the Post Office and, what's more, you had to read it, process it and were even encouraged to keep it at the Post Office.

[I realize that the new mail model, as implemented by Google and other providers, is seen as a part of various "collaboration" services that imply reliance on a central server.  (Shades of the old mainframe, on which I managed my mail for decades!   But at least then it was a UC mainframe and I was part of the UC community.  I don't consider myself a member of the "Google" community!).  But it should be possible to use email for personal, private and/or sensitive communication without having to opt-in to the bells and whistles].

Anyway, what I've found is that in order to remove mail from the server with Thunderbird, I must delete it explicitly.  But if I also want to move it from my Inbox to a local folder I must do two operations:  move and then delete from "All Mail" (because it's no longer in the Inbox so I can't delete it from there).  So, I'm constantly switching between Inbox and "All Mail", as well as, now and then, checking the local folder to make sure I've moved the mail before I proceed to delete it from the server,  And when I send mail, I must delete that explicitly from the "Sent Mail" (or "All Mail") folder, even if I've already moved it to a local folder.

(I haven't even mentioned the fact that I now frequently clean up my "Deleted" folder, since that's also a potentially long term repository of my mail on the server.  In fact, some of the mail that I am mostly likely not to want residing at Google are those parcels I have explicitly deleted.  After all, that's why I deleted them!).

OK, so the above scenario implies that I should just read and process my mail directly from "All Mail", moving and then deleting from there.  However, it turns out that it's worse on the iPhone.  There, I must explicitly "delete" mail from each "folder" in which it appears.  For example, even if I "delete" it from "All Mail", it still remains in my Inbox until I delete it explicitly from there as well.  And if it was sent mail, I must also delete it explicitly from the "Sent Mail" folder.  (And, I guess, if it had been marked "Important", which Google decides to do based on its own algorithm over which I have no control, I'd have to delete the "Important" label as well, otherwise the mail is still on the server).  In other words, it seems that on the iPhone, "delete" really means just remove the current Google label.  And, as it happens, in this case "All Mail" acts like any other label:  deleting from there still leaves the mail with any other labels it has.  So, on the iPhone, I find myself doing several deletes of each piece of mail and this doesn't even have anything to do with moving to local folders.  At least in the case of Thunderbird, the "Delete" button actually deletes the mail from the server (removing all labels).  I don't know enough about the IMAP protocol to be able to say whether the iPhone's behavior is compliant.  But at least it would be nice for a mail "delete" on the iPhone to act as if a "delete" had been sent to the IMAP server.

Mike


On 2012-11-30 17:45, Terri Kouba wrote:
Hi Mike,

I know that one size doesn't fit all, but here's what I do: 

I have a filter and it set up to: skip the inbox, mark as read and apply the label xxxx (so it goes into another 'folder' in the Thunderbird view).
http://support.google.com/mail/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=2802754&rd=1

...
-- 
Mike Friedman
[hidden email]
http://mikefberkeley.com


 
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Re: [Micronet] bMail and Thunderbird

secabeen
If you strongly want to get your personal mail off of Google's servers,
have you considered forwarding it to a server you do trust?  Google will
forward mail to any address you like, and delete the copy that they
received as soon as it has been successfully forwarded.  There are
multiple vendors providing email systems that prioritize security, such
as hushmail.com.

These days, pretty much all email systems work on the concept pioneered
by the IMAP protocol, where email primarily lives on the server, and
your clients simply view the mail stored there.  This system more easily
allows for a user to have multiple clients (desktop, mobile, webmail,
etc.), rather than mail getting shunted off to a single machine and no
longer available at the networked server.

--Ted

On 12/2/2012 5:08 PM, Mike Friedman wrote:

> Terri,
>
> I appreciate your suggestion, but I'm afraid it doesn't address my main
> concern.  What I'm most interested in is being able to get my mail off
> the server as soon as possible.  On general principles, I don't like the
> idea of my personal mail residing at Google for any appreciable length
> of time.  When the mail was on a UC server, this might not have been as
> big a deal (since UC, unlike Google, doesn't have a business model that
> involves integrating the content of users' mail with a slew of its other
> services).  Though, ironically, with CalMail it was trivial to remove my
> mail from the server, since this was an automatic byproduct of moving it
> to a local folder.  Unfortunately, Google's philosophy seems to be that
> users should work with their mail on the server (using the web
> interface), even treating the server as their ongoing email repository.
> After all, it's not very easy to move a piece of mail from the server to
> a folder on my computer using the web interface.  As an analogy, imagine
> that in order to receive Postal mail you /required/ a box at the Post
> Office /and/, what's more, you had to read it, process it and were even
> encouraged to keep it at the Post Office.
>
> [I realize that the new mail model, as implemented by Google and other
> providers, is seen as a part of various "collaboration" services that
> imply reliance on a central server.  (Shades of the old mainframe, on
> which I managed my mail for decades!   But at least then it was a UC
> mainframe and I was part of the UC community.  I don't consider myself a
> member of the "Google" community!).  But it should be possible to use
> email for personal, private and/or sensitive communication without
> having to opt-in to the bells and whistles].
>
> Anyway, what I've found is that in order to remove mail from the server
> with Thunderbird, I must delete it explicitly.  But if I also want to
> move it from my Inbox to a local folder I must do two operations:  move
> and then delete from "All Mail" (because it's no longer in the Inbox so
> I can't delete it from there).  So, I'm constantly switching between
> Inbox and "All Mail", as well as, now and then, checking the local
> folder to make sure I've moved the mail before I proceed to delete it
> from the server,  And when I /send/ mail, I must delete that explicitly
> from the "Sent Mail" (or "All Mail") folder, even if I've already moved
> it to a local folder.
>
> (I haven't even mentioned the fact that I now frequently clean up my
> "Deleted" folder, since that's also a potentially long term repository
> of my mail on the server.  In fact, some of the mail that I am mostly
> likely /not/ to want residing at Google are those parcels I have
> explicitly deleted.  After all, that's why I deleted them!).
>
> OK, so the above scenario implies that I should just read and process my
> mail directly from "All Mail", moving and then deleting from there.
> However, it turns out that it's worse on the iPhone.  There, I must
> explicitly "delete" mail from /each/ "folder" in which it appears.  For
> example, even if I "delete" it from "All Mail", it still remains in my
> Inbox until I delete it explicitly from there as well.  And if it was
> /sent/ mail, I must also delete it explicitly from the "Sent Mail"
> folder.  (And, I guess, if it had been marked "Important", which Google
> decides to do based on its own algorithm over which I have no control,
> I'd have to delete the "Important" label as well, otherwise the mail is
> still on the server).  In other words, it seems that on the iPhone,
> "delete" really means just remove the current Google label.  And, as it
> happens, in this case "All Mail" acts like any other label:  deleting
> from there still leaves the mail with any other labels it has.  So, on
> the iPhone, I find myself doing several deletes /of each piece of mail/
> and this doesn't even have anything to do with moving to local folders.
> At least in the case of Thunderbird, the "Delete" button actually
> deletes the mail from the server (removing all labels).  I don't know
> enough about the IMAP protocol to be able to say whether the iPhone's
> behavior is compliant.  But at least it would be nice for a mail
> "delete" on the iPhone to act as if a "delete" had been sent to the IMAP
> server.
>
> Mike
>
>
> On 2012-11-30 17:45, Terri Kouba wrote:
>> Hi Mike,
>>
>> I know that one size doesn't fit all, but here's what I do:
>>
>> I have a filter and it set up to: skip the inbox, mark as read and
>> apply the label xxxx (so it goes into another 'folder' in the
>> Thunderbird view).
>> http://support.google.com/mail/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=2802754&rd=1
>
> ...
>
> --
> Mike Friedman
> [hidden email]
> http://mikefberkeley.com
>
>
>
>
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>
> http://micronet.berkeley.edu
>
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Re: [Micronet] bMail and Thunderbird

Aaron DuBois
In reply to this post by Mike Friedman
I too would expect the server to interpret me moving an email from my
IMAP INbox, or any other server side mail "folder"(yes it's a tag) to a
local folder, as a "get this off the server" request(remove all current
tags, add deleted tag at the least, if not just preforming a MOVE of the
email outright).

I understand the tagged emails in a blob thing(blog style), but if the
system is going to act like it's files/folders to the end user it should
behave like files/folders do in a very exacting way. Especially as end
users already know this from their desktops, so have an expected
behavior for file/folder icons, and drag and drop functions.



While i am still waiting to be moved to check any of this out myself can
anyone here describe the behavior for me?

If i drag and drop an email from one folder to another what will google do?

A: It adds an additional tag to the email so it shows up in more than
one "folder".

B: It will change the tag to the new "folder" name, thus emulating the
behavior of file/folder drag and drop that end users already know and
probably expect, based on use of folder icons.



If i have an email tagged in more than one folder and I delete it from
one folder, will it still be in the other tagged "folders" or is it now
only seen in the deleted and/or Allmail section(removes all current tags
and adds deleted tag, or removes the one tag from where i deleted it
leaving the other tags and adding deleted tag)?

Will bmail work the same with POP? If you POP will it remove the emails
from the server or will it simply tag them as deleted and now you still
have to web log in to fully delete emails?



I would also suggest that the, show me this here show me that there
settings, are not so much what Mike is asking about. Nor is it exactly
about trust or personal emails directly either.

It's not that i want to see emails here or there using filters, it's
that i want to know exactly what was done with the email. If it looks
like a folder, and allows drag and drop, this is an already known
interface. One where the actual location of a thing is being
manipulated. If that is not actually going on, I would seriously
consider removing the folder icons in the web interface. It's only
helpful to use things people are familiar with if it behaves like the
thing they are familiar with. Looking like something you know but not
behaving like that thing is more frustration than help.

And where clients are concerned, it's the same here too, behaving like
what people already know. Are all the people who are embedded in their
clients going to have to relearn the same client over again because the
way the server reacts to the old behavior is different now? That would
be very user unfriendly. If it's going to be that way it very much needs
to be plainly and clearly advertised, so that people do not have
expectations that are inconsistent with what is being moved to.

We can deal with new things, that's not a problem. The issue will be if
people get the idea that nothing is really changing, but then the old
behavior on my end gets completely new results from what it used to.
If that's the case, make sure everyone(the non-tech users especially)
knows and expects this in advance or there will probably be pitchforks
and torches.



On 12/2/2012 5:08 PM, Mike Friedman wrote:

> Terri,
>
> I appreciate your suggestion, but I'm afraid it doesn't address my main
> concern.  What I'm most interested in is being able to get my mail off
> the server as soon as possible.  On general principles, I don't like the
> idea of my personal mail residing at Google for any appreciable length
> of time.  When the mail was on a UC server, this might not have been as
> big a deal (since UC, unlike Google, doesn't have a business model that
> involves integrating the content of users' mail with a slew of its other
> services). Though, ironically, with CalMail it was trivial to remove my
> mail from the server, since this was an automatic byproduct of moving it
> to a local folder.  Unfortunately, Google's philosophy seems to be that
> users should work with their mail on the server (using the web
> interface), even treating the server as their ongoing email repository.
> After all, it's not very easy to move a piece of mail from the server to
> a folder on my computer using the web interface.  As an analogy, imagine
> that in order to receive Postal mail you /required/ a box at the Post
> Office /and/, what's more, you had to read it, process it and were even
> encouraged to keep it at the Post Office.
>
> [I realize that the new mail model, as implemented by Google and other
> providers, is seen as a part of various "collaboration" services that
> imply reliance on a central server.  (Shades of the old mainframe, on
> which I managed my mail for decades!   But at least then it was a UC
> mainframe and I was part of the UC community.  I don't consider myself a
> member of the "Google" community!).  But it should be possible to use
> email for personal, private and/or sensitive communication without
> having to opt-in to the bells and whistles].
>
> Anyway, what I've found is that in order to remove mail from the server
> with Thunderbird, I must delete it explicitly.  But if I also want to
> move it from my Inbox to a local folder I must do two operations:  move
> and then delete from "All Mail" (because it's no longer in the Inbox so
> I can't delete it from there).  So, I'm constantly switching between
> Inbox and "All Mail", as well as, now and then, checking the local
> folder to make sure I've moved the mail before I proceed to delete it
> from the server,  And when I /send/ mail, I must delete that explicitly
> from the "Sent Mail" (or "All Mail") folder, even if I've already moved
> it to a local folder.
>
> (I haven't even mentioned the fact that I now frequently clean up my
> "Deleted" folder, since that's also a potentially long term repository
> of my mail on the server.  In fact, some of the mail that I am mostly
> likely /not/ to want residing at Google are those parcels I have
> explicitly deleted.  After all, that's why I deleted them!).
>
> OK, so the above scenario implies that I should just read and process my
> mail directly from "All Mail", moving and then deleting from there.
> However, it turns out that it's worse on the iPhone. There, I must
> explicitly "delete" mail from /each/ "folder" in which it appears.  For
> example, even if I "delete" it from "All Mail", it still remains in my
> Inbox until I delete it explicitly from there as well.  And if it was
> /sent/ mail, I must also delete it explicitly from the "Sent Mail"
> folder.  (And, I guess, if it had been marked "Important", which Google
> decides to do based on its own algorithm over which I have no control,
> I'd have to delete the "Important" label as well, otherwise the mail is
> still on the server).  In other words, it seems that on the iPhone,
> "delete" really means just remove the current Google label.  And, as it
> happens, in this case "All Mail" acts like any other label:  deleting
> from there still leaves the mail with any other labels it has.  So, on
> the iPhone, I find myself doing several deletes /of each piece of mail/
> and this doesn't even have anything to do with moving to local folders.
> At least in the case of Thunderbird, the "Delete" button actually
> deletes the mail from the server (removing all labels).  I don't know
> enough about the IMAP protocol to be able to say whether the iPhone's
> behavior is compliant.  But at least it would be nice for a mail
> "delete" on the iPhone to act as if a "delete" had been sent to the IMAP
> server.
>
> Mike
>
>
> On 2012-11-30 17:45, Terri Kouba wrote:
>> Hi Mike,
>>
>> I know that one size doesn't fit all, but here's what I do:
>>
>> I have a filter and it set up to: skip the inbox, mark as read and
>> apply the label xxxx (so it goes into another 'folder' in the
>> Thunderbird view).
>> http://support.google.com/mail/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=2802754&rd=1
>
> ...
>
> --
> Mike Friedman
> [hidden email]
> http://mikefberkeley.com
>
>
>
>
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--
Aaron DuBois CRSII
Sociology Department
489 Barrows Hall
510-643-9389
Mon-Fri 8:30-2:30 or by appointment

 
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