[Micronet] reading OE proposals: Productivity Services Suite: Software as a Service - Hosted and Local

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[Micronet] reading OE proposals: Productivity Services Suite: Software as a Service - Hosted and Local

jon kuroda-2
I was perusing OE Design Phase Reports[1] and ran across this one:

http://oe.berkeley.edu/dpreports/documents/IT_ProductivityServicesSuite_ResReqwithWatermark.pdf

I am (re-)reading it a few times to make sure I grok the full impact of
this proposal, but some of the overall ideas proposed I gleaned from my
reading of this proposal:

  * Outsource Campus E-Mail (CalMail)
  * Outsource Calendaring
  * Outsource Office/Document Suites and Collab Tools

Essentially, deliver all this and more via cloudy services via webapps,
ala Google Docs/Apps and similar instead of local installs of software.

I imagine something like Google Docs/Apps or Microsoft's Live@EDU would
be among the respondents to an RFP/Q if this made it to that stage.

I'm going to try and stay far away from the question of whether CalMail
as we know it should be deprecated or whether Campus should continue to
pursue Bedework[2][3] or stop purchasing SW via MCCA and, instead, just
look at some possible scenarios in such a future.

  * No more working on proposals or presentations on flights/Amtrak.[4]
  * Used up your monthly ResHall network quota?  No Documents For You!
  * AirBears goes out in a lecture hall ... no more slides![5]

Granted, all that would be needed to fix this would be the existence of
good support for working off-line.[6]

Am I horribly mis-reading this proposal?  Is this one still active?

--Jon

[1] http://oe.berkeley.edu/dpreports/
[2] Especially now that OS X 10.7 (Lion) dropped support for Rosetta,
which let users run PPC apps on Intel Macs, needed to run the 'native'
PPC-only Oracle Calendar app on OS X.  
[3] Is the Campus Bedework dead? I haven't heard much since January.
[4] Granted, this would force people to actually finish slides earlier ...
[5] Or ... wireless driver update goes haywire.
[6] Google has been on/off-again with off-line mode for Docs for a while

 
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Re: [Micronet] reading OE proposals: Productivity Services Suite: Software as a Service - Hosted and Local

Lucy Greco-2
I can't expect most of you to think of this but what happens when it's a blind student that needs those slides and Google docs won't work with their screen reader or windows 365 does not give them the opportunity to spell check there paper before handing it in. access is a better reason now to cloud yet one day but not until venders make it accessible that will also make it useable smile


Lucy Greco
Assistive Technology Specialist
Disabled Student's Program UC Berkeley
(510) 643-7591
http://attlc.berkeley.edu 
http://webaccess.berkeley.edu


-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of jon kuroda
Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2011 4:09 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Micronet] reading OE proposals: Productivity Services Suite: Software as a Service - Hosted and Local

I was perusing OE Design Phase Reports[1] and ran across this one:

http://oe.berkeley.edu/dpreports/documents/IT_ProductivityServicesSuite_ResReqwithWatermark.pdf

I am (re-)reading it a few times to make sure I grok the full impact of
this proposal, but some of the overall ideas proposed I gleaned from my
reading of this proposal:

  * Outsource Campus E-Mail (CalMail)
  * Outsource Calendaring
  * Outsource Office/Document Suites and Collab Tools

Essentially, deliver all this and more via cloudy services via webapps,
ala Google Docs/Apps and similar instead of local installs of software.

I imagine something like Google Docs/Apps or Microsoft's Live@EDU would
be among the respondents to an RFP/Q if this made it to that stage.

I'm going to try and stay far away from the question of whether CalMail
as we know it should be deprecated or whether Campus should continue to
pursue Bedework[2][3] or stop purchasing SW via MCCA and, instead, just
look at some possible scenarios in such a future.

  * No more working on proposals or presentations on flights/Amtrak.[4]
  * Used up your monthly ResHall network quota?  No Documents For You!
  * AirBears goes out in a lecture hall ... no more slides![5]

Granted, all that would be needed to fix this would be the existence of
good support for working off-line.[6]

Am I horribly mis-reading this proposal?  Is this one still active?

--Jon

[1] http://oe.berkeley.edu/dpreports/
[2] Especially now that OS X 10.7 (Lion) dropped support for Rosetta,
which let users run PPC apps on Intel Macs, needed to run the 'native'
PPC-only Oracle Calendar app on OS X.  
[3] Is the Campus Bedework dead? I haven't heard much since January.
[4] Granted, this would force people to actually finish slides earlier ...
[5] Or ... wireless driver update goes haywire.
[6] Google has been on/off-again with off-line mode for Docs for a while

 
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Re: [Micronet] reading OE proposals: Productivity Services Suite: Software as a Service - Hosted and Local

Karl R. Grose
In reply to this post by jon kuroda-2
On 07/20/2011 16:09, jon kuroda wrote:

> Essentially, deliver all this and more via cloudy services via webapps,
> ala Google Docs/Apps and similar instead of local installs of software.

My understanding is that it would be "in addition to" local installs of
software, not "instead" of.

--Karl


 
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Re: [Micronet] reading OE proposals: Productivity Services Suite: Software as a Service - Hosted and Local

Burke Bundy
And where are the cost savings coming from if all of this is "in addition
to"???

Burke


> On 07/20/2011 16:09, jon kuroda wrote:
>
>> Essentially, deliver all this and more via cloudy services via webapps,
>> ala Google Docs/Apps and similar instead of local installs of software.
>
> My understanding is that it would be "in addition to" local installs of
> software, not "instead" of.
>
> --Karl
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> The following was automatically added to this message by the list server:
>
> To learn more about Micronet, including how to subscribe to or unsubscribe
> from its mailing list and how to find out about upcoming meetings, please
> visit the Micronet Web site:
>
> http://micronet.berkeley.edu
>
> Messages you send to this mailing list are public and world-viewable, and
> the list's archives can be browsed and searched on the Internet.  This
> means these messages can be viewed by (among others) your bosses,
> prospective employers, and people who have known you in the past.
>



 
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Re: [Micronet] reading OE proposals: Productivity Services Suite: Software as a Service - Hosted and Local

billallison
In reply to this post by jon kuroda-2
Hi Jon,

This proposal is live, and was approved by OE.  The project has not formally begun, but they have a date for the formal kick-off of the project at the end of July (effectively an August start).

The issues you raised are in play, and there are plans for significant campus input and outreach when this starts.  Avoiding issues including the "No docs for you!" problem of online only editing tools is obviously a requirement the team has identified.

If anyone on Micronet has thoughts and wants to get a jump on sending them to the team please email: [hidden email]

-Bill

On Jul 20, 2011, at 4:09 PM, jon kuroda wrote:

> I was perusing OE Design Phase Reports[1] and ran across this one:
>
> http://oe.berkeley.edu/dpreports/documents/IT_ProductivityServicesSuite_ResReqwithWatermark.pdf
>
> I am (re-)reading it a few times to make sure I grok the full impact of
> this proposal, but some of the overall ideas proposed I gleaned from my
> reading of this proposal:
>
>  * Outsource Campus E-Mail (CalMail)
>  * Outsource Calendaring
>  * Outsource Office/Document Suites and Collab Tools
>
> Essentially, deliver all this and more via cloudy services via webapps,
> ala Google Docs/Apps and similar instead of local installs of software.
>
> I imagine something like Google Docs/Apps or Microsoft's Live@EDU would
> be among the respondents to an RFP/Q if this made it to that stage.
>
> I'm going to try and stay far away from the question of whether CalMail
> as we know it should be deprecated or whether Campus should continue to
> pursue Bedework[2][3] or stop purchasing SW via MCCA and, instead, just
> look at some possible scenarios in such a future.
>
>  * No more working on proposals or presentations on flights/Amtrak.[4]
>  * Used up your monthly ResHall network quota?  No Documents For You!
>  * AirBears goes out in a lecture hall ... no more slides![5]
>
> Granted, all that would be needed to fix this would be the existence of
> good support for working off-line.[6]
>
> Am I horribly mis-reading this proposal?  Is this one still active?
>
> --Jon
>
> [1] http://oe.berkeley.edu/dpreports/
> [2] Especially now that OS X 10.7 (Lion) dropped support for Rosetta,
> which let users run PPC apps on Intel Macs, needed to run the 'native'
> PPC-only Oracle Calendar app on OS X.  
> [3] Is the Campus Bedework dead? I haven't heard much since January.
> [4] Granted, this would force people to actually finish slides earlier ...
> [5] Or ... wireless driver update goes haywire.
> [6] Google has been on/off-again with off-line mode for Docs for a while
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> The following was automatically added to this message by the list server:
>
> To learn more about Micronet, including how to subscribe to or unsubscribe from its mailing list and how to find out about upcoming meetings, please visit the Micronet Web site:
>
> http://micronet.berkeley.edu
>
> Messages you send to this mailing list are public and world-viewable, and the list's archives can be browsed and searched on the Internet.  This means these messages can be viewed by (among others) your bosses, prospective employers, and people who have known you in the past.


 
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Re: [Micronet] reading OE proposals: Productivity Services Suite: Software as a Service - Hosted and Local

Seth Novogrodsky
Hi Bill,

I am concerned whether campus needs can be adequately met with this
proposal.  The tools available on CalMail for administering a
departmental domain are excellent, and it is not clear to me that an
outsourced solution will provide the same functionality.

I also personally found the references to the "elite staff" who run
CalAgenda and CalMail somewhat disturbing (unless I am reading this
wrong, the implication is that these are highly paid staff who will be
laid off).

Also, by combining office productivity suites with calendaring and
email, we are essentially limiting ourselves to two vendors (Microsoft
and Google).  That does not give us a strong bargaining position.

If this proposal is going to be pursued, I would very much like to
participate in determining the functional requirements.

Regards,
Seth


On 7/20/2011 4:29 PM, Bill Allison wrote:
> Hi Jon,
>
> This proposal is live, and was approved by OE. The project has not
formally begun, but they have a date for the formal kick-off of the
project at the end of July (effectively an August start).
>
> The issues you raised are in play, and there are plans for
> significant
campus input and outreach when this starts. Avoiding issues including
the "No docs for you!" problem of online only editing tools is obviously
a requirement the team has identified.
>
> If anyone on Micronet has thoughts and wants to get a jump on
> sending
them to the team please email: [hidden email]
>
> -Bill
>
> On Jul 20, 2011, at 4:09 PM, jon kuroda wrote:
>
>> I was perusing OE Design Phase Reports[1] and ran across this one:
>>
>>
http://oe.berkeley.edu/dpreports/documents/IT_ProductivityServicesSuite_ResReqwithWatermark.pdf

>>
>> I am (re-)reading it a few times to make sure I grok the full impact of
>> this proposal, but some of the overall ideas proposed I gleaned from my
>> reading of this proposal:
>>
>>  * Outsource Campus E-Mail (CalMail)
>>  * Outsource Calendaring
>>  * Outsource Office/Document Suites and Collab Tools
>>
>> Essentially, deliver all this and more via cloudy services via webapps,
>> ala Google Docs/Apps and similar instead of local installs of software.
>>
>> I imagine something like Google Docs/Apps or Microsoft's Live@EDU would
>> be among the respondents to an RFP/Q if this made it to that stage.
>>
>> I'm going to try and stay far away from the question of whether CalMail
>> as we know it should be deprecated or whether Campus should continue to
>> pursue Bedework[2][3] or stop purchasing SW via MCCA and, instead, just
>> look at some possible scenarios in such a future.
>>
>>  * No more working on proposals or presentations on flights/Amtrak.[4]
>>  * Used up your monthly ResHall network quota?  No Documents For You!
>>  * AirBears goes out in a lecture hall ... no more slides![5]
>>
>> Granted, all that would be needed to fix this would be the existence of
>> good support for working off-line.[6]
>>
>> Am I horribly mis-reading this proposal?  Is this one still active?
>>
>> --Jon
>>
>> [1] http://oe.berkeley.edu/dpreports/
>> [2] Especially now that OS X 10.7 (Lion) dropped support for Rosetta,
>> which let users run PPC apps on Intel Macs, needed to run the 'native'
>> PPC-only Oracle Calendar app on OS X.  
>> [3] Is the Campus Bedework dead? I haven't heard much since January.
>> [4] Granted, this would force people to actually finish slides earlier ...
>> [5] Or ... wireless driver update goes haywire.
>> [6] Google has been on/off-again with off-line mode for Docs for a while
>>
>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> The following was automatically added to this message by the list server:
>>
>> To learn more about Micronet, including how to subscribe to or unsubscribe from its mailing list and how to find out about upcoming meetings, please visit the Micronet Web site:
>>
>> http://micronet.berkeley.edu
>>
>> Messages you send to this mailing list are public and world-viewable, and the list's archives can be browsed and searched on the Internet.  This means these messages can be viewed by (among others) your bosses, prospective employers, and people who have known you in the past.
>
>
>  
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> The following was automatically added to this message by the list server:
>
> To learn more about Micronet, including how to subscribe to or unsubscribe from its mailing list and how to find out about upcoming meetings, please visit the Micronet Web site:
>
> http://micronet.berkeley.edu
>
> Messages you send to this mailing list are public and world-viewable, and the list's archives can be browsed and searched on the Internet.  This means these messages can be viewed by (among others) your bosses, prospective employers, and people who have known you in the past.


--
Seth Novogrodsky, Letters & Science Computing Resources
http://ls.berkeley.edu/lscr/who/staff/seth

 
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Re: [Micronet] reading OE proposals: Productivity Services Suite: Software as a Service - Hosted and Local

Burke Bundy
I think losing the "elite staff" is a legitimate concern, especially
considering the rate at which top talent has been fleeing IST (and the
campus) recently...

Just my $0.02.

Burke


> Hi Bill,
>
> I am concerned whether campus needs can be adequately met with this
> proposal.  The tools available on CalMail for administering a
> departmental domain are excellent, and it is not clear to me that an
> outsourced solution will provide the same functionality.
>
> I also personally found the references to the "elite staff" who run
> CalAgenda and CalMail somewhat disturbing (unless I am reading this
> wrong, the implication is that these are highly paid staff who will be
> laid off).
>
> Also, by combining office productivity suites with calendaring and
> email, we are essentially limiting ourselves to two vendors (Microsoft
> and Google).  That does not give us a strong bargaining position.
>
> If this proposal is going to be pursued, I would very much like to
> participate in determining the functional requirements.
>
> Regards,
> Seth
>
>
> On 7/20/2011 4:29 PM, Bill Allison wrote:
>> Hi Jon,
>>
>> This proposal is live, and was approved by OE. The project has not
> formally begun, but they have a date for the formal kick-off of the
> project at the end of July (effectively an August start).
>>
>> The issues you raised are in play, and there are plans for
>> significant
> campus input and outreach when this starts. Avoiding issues including
> the "No docs for you!" problem of online only editing tools is obviously
> a requirement the team has identified.
>>
>> If anyone on Micronet has thoughts and wants to get a jump on
>> sending
> them to the team please email: [hidden email]
>>
>> -Bill
>>
>> On Jul 20, 2011, at 4:09 PM, jon kuroda wrote:
>>
>>> I was perusing OE Design Phase Reports[1] and ran across this one:
>>>
>>>
> http://oe.berkeley.edu/dpreports/documents/IT_ProductivityServicesSuite_ResReqwithWatermark.pdf
>>>
>>> I am (re-)reading it a few times to make sure I grok the full impact of
>>> this proposal, but some of the overall ideas proposed I gleaned from my
>>> reading of this proposal:
>>>
>>>  * Outsource Campus E-Mail (CalMail)
>>>  * Outsource Calendaring
>>>  * Outsource Office/Document Suites and Collab Tools
>>>
>>> Essentially, deliver all this and more via cloudy services via webapps,
>>> ala Google Docs/Apps and similar instead of local installs of software.
>>>
>>> I imagine something like Google Docs/Apps or Microsoft's Live@EDU would
>>> be among the respondents to an RFP/Q if this made it to that stage.
>>>
>>> I'm going to try and stay far away from the question of whether CalMail
>>> as we know it should be deprecated or whether Campus should continue to
>>> pursue Bedework[2][3] or stop purchasing SW via MCCA and, instead, just
>>> look at some possible scenarios in such a future.
>>>
>>>  * No more working on proposals or presentations on flights/Amtrak.[4]
>>>  * Used up your monthly ResHall network quota?  No Documents For You!
>>>  * AirBears goes out in a lecture hall ... no more slides![5]
>>>
>>> Granted, all that would be needed to fix this would be the existence of
>>> good support for working off-line.[6]
>>>
>>> Am I horribly mis-reading this proposal?  Is this one still active?
>>>
>>> --Jon
>>>
>>> [1] http://oe.berkeley.edu/dpreports/
>>> [2] Especially now that OS X 10.7 (Lion) dropped support for Rosetta,
>>> which let users run PPC apps on Intel Macs, needed to run the 'native'
>>> PPC-only Oracle Calendar app on OS X.
>>> [3] Is the Campus Bedework dead? I haven't heard much since January.
>>> [4] Granted, this would force people to actually finish slides earlier
>>> ...
>>> [5] Or ... wireless driver update goes haywire.
>>> [6] Google has been on/off-again with off-line mode for Docs for a
>>> while
>>>
>>>
>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> The following was automatically added to this message by the list
>>> server:
>>>
>>> To learn more about Micronet, including how to subscribe to or
>>> unsubscribe from its mailing list and how to find out about upcoming
>>> meetings, please visit the Micronet Web site:
>>>
>>> http://micronet.berkeley.edu
>>>
>>> Messages you send to this mailing list are public and world-viewable,
>>> and the list's archives can be browsed and searched on the Internet.
>>> This means these messages can be viewed by (among others) your bosses,
>>> prospective employers, and people who have known you in the past.
>>
>>
>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> The following was automatically added to this message by the list
>> server:
>>
>> To learn more about Micronet, including how to subscribe to or
>> unsubscribe from its mailing list and how to find out about upcoming
>> meetings, please visit the Micronet Web site:
>>
>> http://micronet.berkeley.edu
>>
>> Messages you send to this mailing list are public and world-viewable,
>> and the list's archives can be browsed and searched on the Internet.
>> This means these messages can be viewed by (among others) your bosses,
>> prospective employers, and people who have known you in the past.
>
>
> --
> Seth Novogrodsky, Letters & Science Computing Resources
> http://ls.berkeley.edu/lscr/who/staff/seth
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> The following was automatically added to this message by the list server:
>
> To learn more about Micronet, including how to subscribe to or unsubscribe
> from its mailing list and how to find out about upcoming meetings, please
> visit the Micronet Web site:
>
> http://micronet.berkeley.edu
>
> Messages you send to this mailing list are public and world-viewable, and
> the list's archives can be browsed and searched on the Internet.  This
> means these messages can be viewed by (among others) your bosses,
> prospective employers, and people who have known you in the past.
>



 
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Re: [Micronet] reading OE proposals: Productivity Services Suite: Software as a Service - Hosted and Local

jon kuroda-2
In reply to this post by billallison
Bill,

On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 04:29:26PM -0700, Bill Allison wrote:
> Hi Jon,
>
> This proposal is live, and was approved by OE.  The project has not formally begun, but they have a date for the formal kick-off of the project at the end of July (effectively an August start).
>
> The issues you raised are in play, and there are plans for significant campus input and outreach when this starts.  Avoiding issues including the "No docs for you!" problem of online only editing tools is obviously a requirement the team has identified.

I am glad you said this - it was not clearly (at least to me) mentioned in
the Proposal that I found on the OE website while other obvious requirements
such as "Data Security" were clearly and explicitly mentioned.

--Jon

> If anyone on Micronet has thoughts and wants to get a jump on sending them to the team please email: [hidden email]
>
> -Bill
>
> On Jul 20, 2011, at 4:09 PM, jon kuroda wrote:
>
> > I was perusing OE Design Phase Reports[1] and ran across this one:
> >
> > http://oe.berkeley.edu/dpreports/documents/IT_ProductivityServicesSuite_ResReqwithWatermark.pdf
> >
> > I am (re-)reading it a few times to make sure I grok the full impact of
> > this proposal, but some of the overall ideas proposed I gleaned from my
> > reading of this proposal:
> >
> >  * Outsource Campus E-Mail (CalMail)
> >  * Outsource Calendaring
> >  * Outsource Office/Document Suites and Collab Tools
> >
> > Essentially, deliver all this and more via cloudy services via webapps,
> > ala Google Docs/Apps and similar instead of local installs of software.
> >
> > I imagine something like Google Docs/Apps or Microsoft's Live@EDU would
> > be among the respondents to an RFP/Q if this made it to that stage.
> >
> > I'm going to try and stay far away from the question of whether CalMail
> > as we know it should be deprecated or whether Campus should continue to
> > pursue Bedework[2][3] or stop purchasing SW via MCCA and, instead, just
> > look at some possible scenarios in such a future.
> >
> >  * No more working on proposals or presentations on flights/Amtrak.[4]
> >  * Used up your monthly ResHall network quota?  No Documents For You!
> >  * AirBears goes out in a lecture hall ... no more slides![5]
> >
> > Granted, all that would be needed to fix this would be the existence of
> > good support for working off-line.[6]
> >
> > Am I horribly mis-reading this proposal?  Is this one still active?
> >
> > --Jon
> >
> > [1] http://oe.berkeley.edu/dpreports/
> > [2] Especially now that OS X 10.7 (Lion) dropped support for Rosetta,
> > which let users run PPC apps on Intel Macs, needed to run the 'native'
> > PPC-only Oracle Calendar app on OS X.  
> > [3] Is the Campus Bedework dead? I haven't heard much since January.
> > [4] Granted, this would force people to actually finish slides earlier ...
> > [5] Or ... wireless driver update goes haywire.
> > [6] Google has been on/off-again with off-line mode for Docs for a while
> >
> >
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > The following was automatically added to this message by the list server:
> >
> > To learn more about Micronet, including how to subscribe to or unsubscribe from its mailing list and how to find out about upcoming meetings, please visit the Micronet Web site:
> >
> > http://micronet.berkeley.edu
> >
> > Messages you send to this mailing list are public and world-viewable, and the list's archives can be browsed and searched on the Internet.  This means these messages can be viewed by (among others) your bosses, prospective employers, and people who have known you in the past.
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Re: [Micronet] reading OE proposals: Productivity Services Suite: Software as a Service - Hosted and Local

Bill Clark
In reply to this post by Burke Bundy
Why the assumption that they would be let go?  Through reorganizing, it
could be the case that "run-of-the-mill staff" might be let go instead,
with the "elite staff" taking their place (in other than a one-one
replacement presumably, to realize some cost savings.)

The skills required in running a large-scale mail or calendar service are
not that different than those required in running many other large-scale
systems, and we'd still need somebody knowledgeable about those
technologies in order to manage the technical side of the relationship
with any outside vendor that were to provide them.

-Bill Clark

> I think losing the "elite staff" is a legitimate concern, especially
> considering the rate at which top talent has been fleeing IST (and the
> campus) recently...
>
> Just my $0.02.
>
> Burke
>
>
>> Hi Bill,
>>
>> I am concerned whether campus needs can be adequately met with this
>> proposal.  The tools available on CalMail for administering a
>> departmental domain are excellent, and it is not clear to me that an
>> outsourced solution will provide the same functionality.
>>
>> I also personally found the references to the "elite staff" who run
>> CalAgenda and CalMail somewhat disturbing (unless I am reading this
>> wrong, the implication is that these are highly paid staff who will be
>> laid off).
>>
>> Also, by combining office productivity suites with calendaring and
>> email, we are essentially limiting ourselves to two vendors (Microsoft
>> and Google).  That does not give us a strong bargaining position.
>>
>> If this proposal is going to be pursued, I would very much like to
>> participate in determining the functional requirements.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Seth
>>
>>
>> On 7/20/2011 4:29 PM, Bill Allison wrote:
>>> Hi Jon,
>>>
>>> This proposal is live, and was approved by OE. The project has not
>> formally begun, but they have a date for the formal kick-off of the
>> project at the end of July (effectively an August start).
>>>
>>> The issues you raised are in play, and there are plans for
>>> significant
>> campus input and outreach when this starts. Avoiding issues including
>> the "No docs for you!" problem of online only editing tools is obviously
>> a requirement the team has identified.
>>>
>>> If anyone on Micronet has thoughts and wants to get a jump on
>>> sending
>> them to the team please email: [hidden email]
>>>
>>> -Bill
>>>
>>> On Jul 20, 2011, at 4:09 PM, jon kuroda wrote:
>>>
>>>> I was perusing OE Design Phase Reports[1] and ran across this one:
>>>>
>>>>
>> http://oe.berkeley.edu/dpreports/documents/IT_ProductivityServicesSuite_ResReqwithWatermark.pdf
>>>>
>>>> I am (re-)reading it a few times to make sure I grok the full impact
>>>> of
>>>> this proposal, but some of the overall ideas proposed I gleaned from
>>>> my
>>>> reading of this proposal:
>>>>
>>>>  * Outsource Campus E-Mail (CalMail)
>>>>  * Outsource Calendaring
>>>>  * Outsource Office/Document Suites and Collab Tools
>>>>
>>>> Essentially, deliver all this and more via cloudy services via
>>>> webapps,
>>>> ala Google Docs/Apps and similar instead of local installs of
>>>> software.
>>>>
>>>> I imagine something like Google Docs/Apps or Microsoft's Live@EDU
>>>> would
>>>> be among the respondents to an RFP/Q if this made it to that stage.
>>>>
>>>> I'm going to try and stay far away from the question of whether
>>>> CalMail
>>>> as we know it should be deprecated or whether Campus should continue
>>>> to
>>>> pursue Bedework[2][3] or stop purchasing SW via MCCA and, instead,
>>>> just
>>>> look at some possible scenarios in such a future.
>>>>
>>>>  * No more working on proposals or presentations on flights/Amtrak.[4]
>>>>  * Used up your monthly ResHall network quota?  No Documents For You!
>>>>  * AirBears goes out in a lecture hall ... no more slides![5]
>>>>
>>>> Granted, all that would be needed to fix this would be the existence
>>>> of
>>>> good support for working off-line.[6]
>>>>
>>>> Am I horribly mis-reading this proposal?  Is this one still active?
>>>>
>>>> --Jon
>>>>
>>>> [1] http://oe.berkeley.edu/dpreports/
>>>> [2] Especially now that OS X 10.7 (Lion) dropped support for Rosetta,
>>>> which let users run PPC apps on Intel Macs, needed to run the 'native'
>>>> PPC-only Oracle Calendar app on OS X.
>>>> [3] Is the Campus Bedework dead? I haven't heard much since January.
>>>> [4] Granted, this would force people to actually finish slides earlier
>>>> ...
>>>> [5] Or ... wireless driver update goes haywire.
>>>> [6] Google has been on/off-again with off-line mode for Docs for a
>>>> while
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> The following was automatically added to this message by the list
>>>> server:
>>>>
>>>> To learn more about Micronet, including how to subscribe to or
>>>> unsubscribe from its mailing list and how to find out about upcoming
>>>> meetings, please visit the Micronet Web site:
>>>>
>>>> http://micronet.berkeley.edu
>>>>
>>>> Messages you send to this mailing list are public and world-viewable,
>>>> and the list's archives can be browsed and searched on the Internet.
>>>> This means these messages can be viewed by (among others) your bosses,
>>>> prospective employers, and people who have known you in the past.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> The following was automatically added to this message by the list
>>> server:
>>>
>>> To learn more about Micronet, including how to subscribe to or
>>> unsubscribe from its mailing list and how to find out about upcoming
>>> meetings, please visit the Micronet Web site:
>>>
>>> http://micronet.berkeley.edu
>>>
>>> Messages you send to this mailing list are public and world-viewable,
>>> and the list's archives can be browsed and searched on the Internet.
>>> This means these messages can be viewed by (among others) your bosses,
>>> prospective employers, and people who have known you in the past.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Seth Novogrodsky, Letters & Science Computing Resources
>> http://ls.berkeley.edu/lscr/who/staff/seth
>>
>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> The following was automatically added to this message by the list
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>> unsubscribe
>> from its mailing list and how to find out about upcoming meetings,
>> please
>> visit the Micronet Web site:
>>
>> http://micronet.berkeley.edu
>>
>> Messages you send to this mailing list are public and world-viewable,
>> and
>> the list's archives can be browsed and searched on the Internet.  This
>> means these messages can be viewed by (among others) your bosses,
>> prospective employers, and people who have known you in the past.
>>
>
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> from its mailing list and how to find out about upcoming meetings, please
> visit the Micronet Web site:
>
> http://micronet.berkeley.edu
>
> Messages you send to this mailing list are public and world-viewable, and
> the list's archives can be browsed and searched on the Internet.  This
> means these messages can be viewed by (among others) your bosses,
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Re: [Micronet] reading OE proposals: Productivity Services Suite: Software as a Service - Hosted and Local

Burke Bundy
Does it seem plausible that IST/campus will be able to retain "elite
staff" if they are no longer designing/maintaining world-class systems but
rather relegated to writing API's to work with Google, Microsoft, etc?

Burke

> Why the assumption that they would be let go?  Through reorganizing, it
> could be the case that "run-of-the-mill staff" might be let go instead,
> with the "elite staff" taking their place (in other than a one-one
> replacement presumably, to realize some cost savings.)
>
> The skills required in running a large-scale mail or calendar service are
> not that different than those required in running many other large-scale
> systems, and we'd still need somebody knowledgeable about those
> technologies in order to manage the technical side of the relationship
> with any outside vendor that were to provide them.
>
> -Bill Clark
>
>> I think losing the "elite staff" is a legitimate concern, especially
>> considering the rate at which top talent has been fleeing IST (and the
>> campus) recently...
>>
>> Just my $0.02.
>>
>> Burke
>>
>>
>>> Hi Bill,
>>>
>>> I am concerned whether campus needs can be adequately met with this
>>> proposal.  The tools available on CalMail for administering a
>>> departmental domain are excellent, and it is not clear to me that an
>>> outsourced solution will provide the same functionality.
>>>
>>> I also personally found the references to the "elite staff" who run
>>> CalAgenda and CalMail somewhat disturbing (unless I am reading this
>>> wrong, the implication is that these are highly paid staff who will be
>>> laid off).
>>>
>>> Also, by combining office productivity suites with calendaring and
>>> email, we are essentially limiting ourselves to two vendors (Microsoft
>>> and Google).  That does not give us a strong bargaining position.
>>>
>>> If this proposal is going to be pursued, I would very much like to
>>> participate in determining the functional requirements.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Seth
>>>
>>>
>>> On 7/20/2011 4:29 PM, Bill Allison wrote:
>>>> Hi Jon,
>>>>
>>>> This proposal is live, and was approved by OE. The project has not
>>> formally begun, but they have a date for the formal kick-off of the
>>> project at the end of July (effectively an August start).
>>>>
>>>> The issues you raised are in play, and there are plans for
>>>> significant
>>> campus input and outreach when this starts. Avoiding issues including
>>> the "No docs for you!" problem of online only editing tools is
>>> obviously
>>> a requirement the team has identified.
>>>>
>>>> If anyone on Micronet has thoughts and wants to get a jump on
>>>> sending
>>> them to the team please email: [hidden email]
>>>>
>>>> -Bill
>>>>
>>>> On Jul 20, 2011, at 4:09 PM, jon kuroda wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I was perusing OE Design Phase Reports[1] and ran across this one:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> http://oe.berkeley.edu/dpreports/documents/IT_ProductivityServicesSuite_ResReqwithWatermark.pdf
>>>>>
>>>>> I am (re-)reading it a few times to make sure I grok the full impact
>>>>> of
>>>>> this proposal, but some of the overall ideas proposed I gleaned from
>>>>> my
>>>>> reading of this proposal:
>>>>>
>>>>>  * Outsource Campus E-Mail (CalMail)
>>>>>  * Outsource Calendaring
>>>>>  * Outsource Office/Document Suites and Collab Tools
>>>>>
>>>>> Essentially, deliver all this and more via cloudy services via
>>>>> webapps,
>>>>> ala Google Docs/Apps and similar instead of local installs of
>>>>> software.
>>>>>
>>>>> I imagine something like Google Docs/Apps or Microsoft's Live@EDU
>>>>> would
>>>>> be among the respondents to an RFP/Q if this made it to that stage.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm going to try and stay far away from the question of whether
>>>>> CalMail
>>>>> as we know it should be deprecated or whether Campus should continue
>>>>> to
>>>>> pursue Bedework[2][3] or stop purchasing SW via MCCA and, instead,
>>>>> just
>>>>> look at some possible scenarios in such a future.
>>>>>
>>>>>  * No more working on proposals or presentations on
>>>>> flights/Amtrak.[4]
>>>>>  * Used up your monthly ResHall network quota?  No Documents For You!
>>>>>  * AirBears goes out in a lecture hall ... no more slides![5]
>>>>>
>>>>> Granted, all that would be needed to fix this would be the existence
>>>>> of
>>>>> good support for working off-line.[6]
>>>>>
>>>>> Am I horribly mis-reading this proposal?  Is this one still active?
>>>>>
>>>>> --Jon
>>>>>
>>>>> [1] http://oe.berkeley.edu/dpreports/
>>>>> [2] Especially now that OS X 10.7 (Lion) dropped support for Rosetta,
>>>>> which let users run PPC apps on Intel Macs, needed to run the
>>>>> 'native'
>>>>> PPC-only Oracle Calendar app on OS X.
>>>>> [3] Is the Campus Bedework dead? I haven't heard much since January.
>>>>> [4] Granted, this would force people to actually finish slides
>>>>> earlier
>>>>> ...
>>>>> [5] Or ... wireless driver update goes haywire.
>>>>> [6] Google has been on/off-again with off-line mode for Docs for a
>>>>> while
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> The following was automatically added to this message by the list
>>>>> server:
>>>>>
>>>>> To learn more about Micronet, including how to subscribe to or
>>>>> unsubscribe from its mailing list and how to find out about upcoming
>>>>> meetings, please visit the Micronet Web site:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://micronet.berkeley.edu
>>>>>
>>>>> Messages you send to this mailing list are public and world-viewable,
>>>>> and the list's archives can be browsed and searched on the Internet.
>>>>> This means these messages can be viewed by (among others) your
>>>>> bosses,
>>>>> prospective employers, and people who have known you in the past.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> The following was automatically added to this message by the list
>>>> server:
>>>>
>>>> To learn more about Micronet, including how to subscribe to or
>>>> unsubscribe from its mailing list and how to find out about upcoming
>>>> meetings, please visit the Micronet Web site:
>>>>
>>>> http://micronet.berkeley.edu
>>>>
>>>> Messages you send to this mailing list are public and world-viewable,
>>>> and the list's archives can be browsed and searched on the Internet.
>>>> This means these messages can be viewed by (among others) your bosses,
>>>> prospective employers, and people who have known you in the past.
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Seth Novogrodsky, Letters & Science Computing Resources
>>> http://ls.berkeley.edu/lscr/who/staff/seth
>>>
>>>
>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> The following was automatically added to this message by the list
>>> server:
>>>
>>> To learn more about Micronet, including how to subscribe to or
>>> unsubscribe
>>> from its mailing list and how to find out about upcoming meetings,
>>> please
>>> visit the Micronet Web site:
>>>
>>> http://micronet.berkeley.edu
>>>
>>> Messages you send to this mailing list are public and world-viewable,
>>> and
>>> the list's archives can be browsed and searched on the Internet.  This
>>> means these messages can be viewed by (among others) your bosses,
>>> prospective employers, and people who have known you in the past.
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>> server:
>>
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>> unsubscribe
>> from its mailing list and how to find out about upcoming meetings,
>> please
>> visit the Micronet Web site:
>>
>> http://micronet.berkeley.edu
>>
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>> and
>> the list's archives can be browsed and searched on the Internet.  This
>> means these messages can be viewed by (among others) your bosses,
>> prospective employers, and people who have known you in the past.
>>
>
>
>



 
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Re: [Micronet] reading OE proposals: Productivity Services Suite: Software as a Service - Hosted and Local

Bill Clark
There are more world-class systems on campus than just CalMail and
CalAgenda.  I don't think the University is hard-pressed to come up with
interesting challenges that rival anything available in the "real world"
-- the issue is and always has been (IMHO) about compensating people
adequately.  If outsourcing provides cost savings, then the other part of
OE (the part that pertains to developing a "high-performing culture")
would hopefully be able to offer those "elite staff" the kind of financial
incentives that would keep them around.

-Bill Clark

> Does it seem plausible that IST/campus will be able to retain "elite
> staff" if they are no longer designing/maintaining world-class systems but
> rather relegated to writing API's to work with Google, Microsoft, etc?
>
> Burke
>
>> Why the assumption that they would be let go?  Through reorganizing, it
>> could be the case that "run-of-the-mill staff" might be let go instead,
>> with the "elite staff" taking their place (in other than a one-one
>> replacement presumably, to realize some cost savings.)
>>
>> The skills required in running a large-scale mail or calendar service
>> are
>> not that different than those required in running many other large-scale
>> systems, and we'd still need somebody knowledgeable about those
>> technologies in order to manage the technical side of the relationship
>> with any outside vendor that were to provide them.
>>
>> -Bill Clark
>>
>>> I think losing the "elite staff" is a legitimate concern, especially
>>> considering the rate at which top talent has been fleeing IST (and the
>>> campus) recently...
>>>
>>> Just my $0.02.
>>>
>>> Burke
>>>
>>>
>>>> Hi Bill,
>>>>
>>>> I am concerned whether campus needs can be adequately met with this
>>>> proposal.  The tools available on CalMail for administering a
>>>> departmental domain are excellent, and it is not clear to me that an
>>>> outsourced solution will provide the same functionality.
>>>>
>>>> I also personally found the references to the "elite staff" who run
>>>> CalAgenda and CalMail somewhat disturbing (unless I am reading this
>>>> wrong, the implication is that these are highly paid staff who will be
>>>> laid off).
>>>>
>>>> Also, by combining office productivity suites with calendaring and
>>>> email, we are essentially limiting ourselves to two vendors (Microsoft
>>>> and Google).  That does not give us a strong bargaining position.
>>>>
>>>> If this proposal is going to be pursued, I would very much like to
>>>> participate in determining the functional requirements.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Seth
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 7/20/2011 4:29 PM, Bill Allison wrote:
>>>>> Hi Jon,
>>>>>
>>>>> This proposal is live, and was approved by OE. The project has not
>>>> formally begun, but they have a date for the formal kick-off of the
>>>> project at the end of July (effectively an August start).
>>>>>
>>>>> The issues you raised are in play, and there are plans for
>>>>> significant
>>>> campus input and outreach when this starts. Avoiding issues including
>>>> the "No docs for you!" problem of online only editing tools is
>>>> obviously
>>>> a requirement the team has identified.
>>>>>
>>>>> If anyone on Micronet has thoughts and wants to get a jump on
>>>>> sending
>>>> them to the team please email: [hidden email]
>>>>>
>>>>> -Bill
>>>>>
>>>>> On Jul 20, 2011, at 4:09 PM, jon kuroda wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I was perusing OE Design Phase Reports[1] and ran across this one:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>> http://oe.berkeley.edu/dpreports/documents/IT_ProductivityServicesSuite_ResReqwithWatermark.pdf
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am (re-)reading it a few times to make sure I grok the full impact
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> this proposal, but some of the overall ideas proposed I gleaned from
>>>>>> my
>>>>>> reading of this proposal:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  * Outsource Campus E-Mail (CalMail)
>>>>>>  * Outsource Calendaring
>>>>>>  * Outsource Office/Document Suites and Collab Tools
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Essentially, deliver all this and more via cloudy services via
>>>>>> webapps,
>>>>>> ala Google Docs/Apps and similar instead of local installs of
>>>>>> software.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I imagine something like Google Docs/Apps or Microsoft's Live@EDU
>>>>>> would
>>>>>> be among the respondents to an RFP/Q if this made it to that stage.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm going to try and stay far away from the question of whether
>>>>>> CalMail
>>>>>> as we know it should be deprecated or whether Campus should continue
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> pursue Bedework[2][3] or stop purchasing SW via MCCA and, instead,
>>>>>> just
>>>>>> look at some possible scenarios in such a future.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  * No more working on proposals or presentations on
>>>>>> flights/Amtrak.[4]
>>>>>>  * Used up your monthly ResHall network quota?  No Documents For
>>>>>> You!
>>>>>>  * AirBears goes out in a lecture hall ... no more slides![5]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Granted, all that would be needed to fix this would be the existence
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> good support for working off-line.[6]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Am I horribly mis-reading this proposal?  Is this one still active?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --Jon
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [1] http://oe.berkeley.edu/dpreports/
>>>>>> [2] Especially now that OS X 10.7 (Lion) dropped support for
>>>>>> Rosetta,
>>>>>> which let users run PPC apps on Intel Macs, needed to run the
>>>>>> 'native'
>>>>>> PPC-only Oracle Calendar app on OS X.
>>>>>> [3] Is the Campus Bedework dead? I haven't heard much since January.
>>>>>> [4] Granted, this would force people to actually finish slides
>>>>>> earlier
>>>>>> ...
>>>>>> [5] Or ... wireless driver update goes haywire.
>>>>>> [6] Google has been on/off-again with off-line mode for Docs for a
>>>>>> while
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> The following was automatically added to this message by the list
>>>>>> server:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To learn more about Micronet, including how to subscribe to or
>>>>>> unsubscribe from its mailing list and how to find out about upcoming
>>>>>> meetings, please visit the Micronet Web site:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://micronet.berkeley.edu
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Messages you send to this mailing list are public and
>>>>>> world-viewable,
>>>>>> and the list's archives can be browsed and searched on the Internet.
>>>>>> This means these messages can be viewed by (among others) your
>>>>>> bosses,
>>>>>> prospective employers, and people who have known you in the past.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> The following was automatically added to this message by the list
>>>>> server:
>>>>>
>>>>> To learn more about Micronet, including how to subscribe to or
>>>>> unsubscribe from its mailing list and how to find out about upcoming
>>>>> meetings, please visit the Micronet Web site:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://micronet.berkeley.edu
>>>>>
>>>>> Messages you send to this mailing list are public and world-viewable,
>>>>> and the list's archives can be browsed and searched on the Internet.
>>>>> This means these messages can be viewed by (among others) your
>>>>> bosses,
>>>>> prospective employers, and people who have known you in the past.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Seth Novogrodsky, Letters & Science Computing Resources
>>>> http://ls.berkeley.edu/lscr/who/staff/seth
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> The following was automatically added to this message by the list
>>>> server:
>>>>
>>>> To learn more about Micronet, including how to subscribe to or
>>>> unsubscribe
>>>> from its mailing list and how to find out about upcoming meetings,
>>>> please
>>>> visit the Micronet Web site:
>>>>
>>>> http://micronet.berkeley.edu
>>>>
>>>> Messages you send to this mailing list are public and world-viewable,
>>>> and
>>>> the list's archives can be browsed and searched on the Internet.  This
>>>> means these messages can be viewed by (among others) your bosses,
>>>> prospective employers, and people who have known you in the past.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>> and
>>> the list's archives can be browsed and searched on the Internet.  This
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>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
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Re: [Micronet] reading OE proposals: Productivity Services Suite: Software as a Service - Hosted and Local

Karl R. Grose
In reply to this post by Burke Bundy
On 07/20/11 16:29, Burke Bundy wrote:

> And where are the cost savings coming from if all of this is "in addition
> to"???

One potential component of savings (among those already discussed in
other areas of the OE proposal) would be a lower per-unit cost for the
on-host software plus the web stack vs. what is typically now paid for
that same software standalone.

--Karl

 
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Re: [Micronet] reading OE proposals: Productivity Services Suite: Software as a Service - Hosted and Local

Michael Sinatra-2
In reply to this post by billallison
On 07/20/11 16:29, Bill Allison wrote:

> Hi Jon,
>
> This proposal is live, and was approved by OE.  The project has not
> formally begun, but they have a date for the formal kick-off of the
> project at the end of July (effectively an August start).
>
> The issues you raised are in play, and there are plans for
> significant campus input and outreach when this starts.  Avoiding
> issues including the "No docs for you!" problem of online only
> editing tools is obviously a requirement the team has identified.
>
> If anyone on Micronet has thoughts and wants to get a jump on sending
> them to the team please email: [hidden email]

As a user of gcal and gdocs, I can provide some data points.  I have
mentioned before that gcal can become incredibly slow at times.  It's a
strange problem that doesn't seem to fall into a pattern.  (Yes, I did
think to troubleshoot "the network" when this slowness occurred.
Fortunately, google displays a little message telling you that the
calendar is slow.)

Today I was working on a collaborative document with some other folks
(only 2 or 3 of us total--fewer than usual).  My google docs kept
crashing.  My browser did not crash--it was actually google docs that
repeatedly opened a dialog box in the document pane and said that it had
encountered a problem and that I needed to reload the page (and I would
lose unsaved edits).  One of my colleagues said that happened to him
yesterday.

Nobody in my current organization uses google docs as a substitute for
powerpoint, word, pdf docs, etc.  It's very helpful for collaborative
work (when it doesn't crash), but it doesn't by any means replace the
more sophisticated "fat tools."  I don't think getting rid of them, and
any savings pertaining thereto, are particularly likely.

As for the issue of whether these OE initiatives will
cause/accelerate/continue a brain drain, I'll just quote myself in my
comments on the Servers/Data Centers initiative proposal: "Another
aspect of the outsourcing question that has bugged me for some time has
to do with talent.  The document makes statements like, "we will enable
the IT staff who now manage small servers to focus their considerable
engineering talents on innovation rather than maintenance."  I am not
sure what sort of innovation we expect to happen here (will they invent
the next Facebook?), but my experience is that when people who are good
at running things are forced to do other things, they simply pack up and
leave."

I think the talent issue is a big one and it is not addressed by any of
the OE initiatives.

michael

PS. I do hope that whatever collaboration tools are chosen will make it
easier to spot grammatical and punctuation errors in documents like
those produced by the OE initiatives.  And could we please avoid
sentences like "However, in today’s interconnected world, users see
these tools as increasingly interconnected."?  Who would have thought
that tools would be interconnected in an interconnected world?

 
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Re: [Micronet] reading OE proposals: Productivity Services Suite: Software as a Service - Hosted and Local

Seth Novogrodsky
In reply to this post by Bill Clark
On 7/20/2011 5:11 PM, Bill Clark wrote:
> Why the assumption that they would be let go?  Through reorganizing, it
> could be the case that "run-of-the-mill staff" might be let go instead,
> with the "elite staff" taking their place (in other than a one-one
> replacement presumably, to realize some cost savings.)

I may be wrong (and I hope I am wrong) but I made the assumption that
the "elite staff" would be let go because (1) Operational Excellence is
designed to save money and (2) "elite staff" was specifically mentioned
and "run-of-the-mill staff" was not.

(I may also be wrong here, but the use of the term "elite staff" seems
to imply that this outsourcing decision may be based at least in part on
ideology rather than campus need.  I don't think that outsourcing is
necessarily a bad thing, but an assumption that outsourcing is always
cheaper or more efficient is a bad one.)

Seth
--
Seth Novogrodsky, Letters & Science Computing Resources
http://ls.berkeley.edu/lscr/who/staff/seth

 
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Re: [Micronet] reading OE proposals: Productivity Services Suite: Software as a Service - Hosted and Local

Rune Stromsness
On 21-Jul-11 08:29, Seth Novogrodsky wrote:

> On 7/20/2011 5:11 PM, Bill Clark wrote:
>> Why the assumption that they would be let go?  Through reorganizing, it
>> could be the case that "run-of-the-mill staff" might be let go instead,
>> with the "elite staff" taking their place (in other than a one-one
>> replacement presumably, to realize some cost savings.)
>
> I may be wrong (and I hope I am wrong) but I made the assumption that
> the "elite staff" would be let go because (1) Operational Excellence is
> designed to save money and (2) "elite staff" was specifically mentioned
> and "run-of-the-mill staff" was not.
>
> (I may also be wrong here, but the use of the term "elite staff" seems
> to imply that this outsourcing decision may be based at least in part on
> ideology rather than campus need.  I don't think that outsourcing is
> necessarily a bad thing, but an assumption that outsourcing is always
> cheaper or more efficient is a bad one.)
The New York Times had an interesting "Room for Debate" edition on
government outsourcing back on 03-Apr of this year:
http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2011/04/03/is-privatization-a-bad-deal-for-cities-and-states/corporations-make-the-same-mistakes

The seven experts who contributed articles had lots to say about where
outsourcing tends to work (save money and/or provide better services)
and where it tends to not work.  Several of them talked about the
difficulties in outsourcing at least certain types of IT functions.

To paraphrase Steven Tadelis from the Haas School of Business:

Executives like simple messages. Outsourcing proponents like to say that
“outsourcing provides good services at low costs,” while many
outsourcing critics will claim that “outsourcing reduces quality and
costs jobs.” Both can be right or wrong, depending on the particulars of
the service involved. The trouble is that political agendas seldom align
with the cost-benefit analysis required for good outsourcing policy
decisions. The tough part is strategically choosing the right projects
and services for privatization that have a good chance of avoiding
outsourcing’s pitfalls.

(The actual quote from Prof. Tadelis is in the article I linked to above.)

Rune

> Seth

--
Rune Stromsness
UNIX Team / Network Operations & Services
Information Services and Technology
University of California, Berkeley
[hidden email]


 
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Re: [Micronet] reading OE proposals: Productivity Services Suite: Software as a Service - Hosted and Local

Rune Stromsness
In reply to this post by Burke Bundy
On 20-Jul-11 16:29, Burke Bundy wrote:
> And where are the cost savings coming from if all of this is "in addition
> to"???

Another question around the costs.  The document says:

> With the diversity and complexity of the UC Berkeley community it is likely that some sections of the community will have needs differentiated from those offered by the common platform. The implementation team must identify the boundaries of what functions are served by the common platforms, and which functions require alternatives for subpopulations including specialized feature-sets, regulatory compliance, and extreme security policies, and lead efforts on how to fund the differentiation layer (probably through cost recovery).

Turning off the free CalMail service saves some central budget a bunch
of money.  But if that means that some new recharge service starts up to
provide the things that CalMail used to provide for free that the
outsourced solution doesn't provide and campus departments spend $X
paying into that recharge service plus $Y doing their own in-house
services to cover new gaps then $X and $Y should both be included as
costs when the campus is doing a campus-wide analysis of the costs and
benefits of that scenario.

The budget PDF doesn't seem to show those costs and "cost recovery"
(recharge income) (although maybe it just isn't obvious as that budget
document is very short on any sort of details).

This appears then to be repeating the mistakes of a number of previous
campus projects that OE said it would avoid -- looking just at the costs
for the service "owner" and ignoring the costs that get pushed out of
the service provider's budget and into departments.



Rune


> Burke
>
>
>> On 07/20/2011 16:09, jon kuroda wrote:
>>
>>> Essentially, deliver all this and more via cloudy services via webapps,
>>> ala Google Docs/Apps and similar instead of local installs of software.
>>
>> My understanding is that it would be "in addition to" local installs of
>> software, not "instead" of.
>>
>> --Karl
>>
>>
>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> The following was automatically added to this message by the list server:
>>
>> To learn more about Micronet, including how to subscribe to or unsubscribe
>> from its mailing list and how to find out about upcoming meetings, please
>> visit the Micronet Web site:
>>
>> http://micronet.berkeley.edu
>>
>> Messages you send to this mailing list are public and world-viewable, and
>> the list's archives can be browsed and searched on the Internet.  This
>> means these messages can be viewed by (among others) your bosses,
>> prospective employers, and people who have known you in the past.
>>
>
>
>
>  
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> The following was automatically added to this message by the list server:
>
> To learn more about Micronet, including how to subscribe to or unsubscribe from its mailing list and how to find out about upcoming meetings, please visit the Micronet Web site:
>
> http://micronet.berkeley.edu
>
> Messages you send to this mailing list are public and world-viewable, and the list's archives can be browsed and searched on the Internet.  This means these messages can be viewed by (among others) your bosses, prospective employers, and people who have known you in the past.
--
Rune Stromsness
UNIX Team / Network Operations & Services
Information Services and Technology
University of California, Berkeley
[hidden email]


 
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Re: [Micronet] reading OE proposals: Productivity Services Suite: Software as a Service - Hosted and Local

Greg Merritt
In reply to this post by jon kuroda-2
The CalMail service is so stunningly good -- and so much better than just about any other highly-visible centralized IT service on campus -- that if it's not globally cost-efficient, then we shouldn't pretend to be able to do *any* IT locally, imho.

-Greg
 
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Re: [Micronet] reading OE proposals: Productivity Services Suite: Software as a Service - Hosted and Local

Nils Ohlson
In reply to this post by Rune Stromsness
Micronetters,

Rune's question raises a further one for me- wouldn't e-mail,
cloud-or-other-provider Office-type services, and all of the other IT
services that absolutely everyone uses in vanilla form, best be funded
and administered like the proposed [1] "Campus Data Network Strategy"
(formerly "Data Network Recharge") which is supposed to be funded by
indirect cost recovery?

The "CDNS" only includes basic network maintenance- but since the
services mentioned in the OE document are:
 Used by 99% of campus;
 Cheapest if bought in bulk;
 Therefore best funded centrally;
why not include them in that funding model (out of overhead) rather than
some sort of piecemeal recharge that inevitably costs extra to administer?

I ask this from my perspective as one who has administered recharge
services on campus since 1983, have calculated and developed recharge
rates, know how much time=$$$ it takes every month to process even the
simplest recharge service, etc. If you have a service that *everyone*
uses, just fold it into overhead!

I realize that Campus has to get any such indirect-cost proposal past US
government agencies which can take forever and has no assurance of
acceptance. However I would like to know that the effort is being made.

Everyones' comments appreciated.

-Nils

[1] Note- I tried to find more information about the CDNS model but all
I could find were e-mail messages I had saved about it (last one dated
August 3, 2010). Links in those messages are now broken. I'm not sure to
find out what the status of this is.
These are the broken links:
http://comp-resources.berkeley.edu/datanetwork/
http://cio.berkeley.edu/datanetwork/


Nils Ohlson
Administrative Analyst
U.C. Berkeley College of Chemistry
Business Office
410 Latimer Hall #1460
Berkeley, CA 94720-1460

(510) 642-1325 phone
(510) 642-4313 fax

[hidden email]



On 7/21/2011 9:17 AM, Rune Stromsness wrote:

> On 20-Jul-11 16:29, Burke Bundy wrote:
>  
>> And where are the cost savings coming from if all of this is "in addition
>> to"???
>>    
>
> Another question around the costs.  The document says:
>
>  
>> With the diversity and complexity of the UC Berkeley community it is likely that some sections of the community will have needs differentiated from those offered by the common platform. The implementation team must identify the boundaries of what functions are served by the common platforms, and which functions require alternatives for subpopulations including specialized feature-sets, regulatory compliance, and extreme security policies, and lead efforts on how to fund the differentiation layer (probably through cost recovery).
>>    
>
> Turning off the free CalMail service saves some central budget a bunch
> of money.  But if that means that some new recharge service starts up to
> provide the things that CalMail used to provide for free that the
> outsourced solution doesn't provide and campus departments spend $X
> paying into that recharge service plus $Y doing their own in-house
> services to cover new gaps then $X and $Y should both be included as
> costs when the campus is doing a campus-wide analysis of the costs and
> benefits of that scenario.
>
> The budget PDF doesn't seem to show those costs and "cost recovery"
> (recharge income) (although maybe it just isn't obvious as that budget
> document is very short on any sort of details).
>
> This appears then to be repeating the mistakes of a number of previous
> campus projects that OE said it would avoid -- looking just at the costs
> for the service "owner" and ignoring the costs that get pushed out of
> the service provider's budget and into departments.
>
>
>
> Rune
>
>
>  
>> Burke
>>
>>
>>    
>>> On 07/20/2011 16:09, jon kuroda wrote:
>>>
>>>      
>>>> Essentially, deliver all this and more via cloudy services via webapps,
>>>> ala Google Docs/Apps and similar instead of local installs of software.
>>>>        
>>> My understanding is that it would be "in addition to" local installs of
>>> software, not "instead" of.
>>>
>>> --Karl
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>      
<snip Micronet boilerplate>

 
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Re: [Micronet] reading OE proposals: Productivity Services Suite: Software as a Service - Hosted and Local

Jeff Anderson-Lee
On 7/21/2011 9:49 AM, Nils Ohlson wrote:

> Micronetters,
>
> Rune's question raises a further one for me- wouldn't e-mail,
> cloud-or-other-provider Office-type services, and all of the other IT
> services that absolutely everyone uses in vanilla form, best be funded
> and administered like the proposed [1] "Campus Data Network Strategy"
> (formerly "Data Network Recharge") which is supposed to be funded by
> indirect cost recovery?
>
> The "CDNS" only includes basic network maintenance- but since the
> services mentioned in the OE document are:
>   Used by 99% of campus;
>   Cheapest if bought in bulk;
>   Therefore best funded centrally;
> why not include them in that funding model (out of overhead) rather than
> some sort of piecemeal recharge that inevitably costs extra to administer?
>
> I ask this from my perspective as one who has administered recharge
> services on campus since 1983, have calculated and developed recharge
> rates, know how much time=$$$ it takes every month to process even the
> simplest recharge service, etc. If you have a service that *everyone*
> uses, just fold it into overhead!

Here, here!

I've heard numbers that it costs roughly $100 to process one purchase
order.  Multiply that by the number of groups that would have to track
and count licenses, supply chart strings, etc, and you have *huge*
savings.  The trouble is, the savings is in labor/time and the
accountants usually want to track dollars.

Every day spent trying to find a lower price on something usually adds
hundreds of dollars to the net-cost in order to shave a few percent off
the price. Unless the price >$10K, that's usually wasted time *and* money.

I'd vote that licenses should be purchased centrally for standard
packages (e.g. Microsoft Office, iWork) and figure a way to distribute
them (e.g. Software Central) that (a) avoids piracy while (b) avoids
per-user or even per-department billing. If that means bumping the
overhead a percent or two, so be it.

Jeff Anderson-Lee
Par Lab,  ERSO

> I realize that Campus has to get any such indirect-cost proposal past US
> government agencies which can take forever and has no assurance of
> acceptance. However I would like to know that the effort is being made.
>
> Everyones' comments appreciated.
>
> -Nils
>
> [1] Note- I tried to find more information about the CDNS model but all
> I could find were e-mail messages I had saved about it (last one dated
> August 3, 2010). Links in those messages are now broken. I'm not sure to
> find out what the status of this is.
> These are the broken links:
> http://comp-resources.berkeley.edu/datanetwork/
> http://cio.berkeley.edu/datanetwork/
>
>
> Nils Ohlson
> Administrative Analyst
> U.C. Berkeley College of Chemistry
> Business Office
> 410 Latimer Hall #1460
> Berkeley, CA 94720-1460
>
> (510) 642-1325 phone
> (510) 642-4313 fax
>
> [hidden email]
>
>
>
> On 7/21/2011 9:17 AM, Rune Stromsness wrote:
>> On 20-Jul-11 16:29, Burke Bundy wrote:
>>
>>> And where are the cost savings coming from if all of this is "in addition
>>> to"???
>>>
>> Another question around the costs.  The document says:
>>
>>
>>> With the diversity and complexity of the UC Berkeley community it is likely that some sections of the community will have needs differentiated from those offered by the common platform. The implementation team must identify the boundaries of what functions are served by the common platforms, and which functions require alternatives for subpopulations including specialized feature-sets, regulatory compliance, and extreme security policies, and lead efforts on how to fund the differentiation layer (probably through cost recovery).
>>>
>> Turning off the free CalMail service saves some central budget a bunch
>> of money.  But if that means that some new recharge service starts up to
>> provide the things that CalMail used to provide for free that the
>> outsourced solution doesn't provide and campus departments spend $X
>> paying into that recharge service plus $Y doing their own in-house
>> services to cover new gaps then $X and $Y should both be included as
>> costs when the campus is doing a campus-wide analysis of the costs and
>> benefits of that scenario.
>>
>> The budget PDF doesn't seem to show those costs and "cost recovery"
>> (recharge income) (although maybe it just isn't obvious as that budget
>> document is very short on any sort of details).
>>
>> This appears then to be repeating the mistakes of a number of previous
>> campus projects that OE said it would avoid -- looking just at the costs
>> for the service "owner" and ignoring the costs that get pushed out of
>> the service provider's budget and into departments.
>>
>>
>>
>> Rune
>>
>>
>>
>>> Burke
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On 07/20/2011 16:09, jon kuroda wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Essentially, deliver all this and more via cloudy services via webapps,
>>>>> ala Google Docs/Apps and similar instead of local installs of software.
>>>>>
>>>> My understanding is that it would be "in addition to" local installs of
>>>> software, not "instead" of.
>>>>
>>>> --Karl
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
> <snip Micronet boilerplate>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> The following was automatically added to this message by the list server:
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>
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>
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Re: [Micronet] reading OE proposals: Productivity Services Suite: Software as a Service - Hosted and Local

Greg Merritt
> If that means bumping the overhead a percent or two, so be it.


If it were only that simple.

We find that granting agencies are scrutinizing overhead (under whatever name) rates, expecting more and more services to be included at the existing (or lower) rates.

Basically, money is tight everywhere.  It would be tough to increase rates in this environment, where simply holding our ground is increasingly challenging.

-Greg
 
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